Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
Trial transcript: Day 16 (October 27), PM Session, Part 2
THE COURT: All right, our next witness.
MR. WALCZAK: Plaintiffs call Heidi Bernhard-Bubb.
MR. WHITE: Your Honor, just for the record, we continue our objection to the limited discovery and the limited inquiry we're allowed to have with the reporters per your orders, especially the one on September 28th of 2005.
THE COURT: Well, your objection is preserved, I'm sure, but we'll note that for the record.
MR. WHITE: Thank you, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may take the stand, ma'am.
HEIDI BERNHARD-BUBB, called as a witness, having been duly sworn or affirmed, testified as follows:
THE COURT: Before we start the questioning, Mr. Benn, do you want to enter your appearance specially for the purpose of this examination? Are you going to go on the record?
MR. BENN: Yes.
THE COURT: Why don't you do that.
MR. BENN: Thank you. My name is Niles Benn, and I'm here on behalf of Heidi Bernhard-Bubb, as well as Mr. Maldonado, who is going to be testifying after Ms. Bernhard-Bubb. I'm representing both reporters with respect to this matter and have represented them through this process, including the court order referred to by Mr. White.
THE COURT: And it's the Court's understanding and I want to make sure that we're all clear, and I mean all counsel, that Mr. Benn is appearing specially in the capacity as just stated and that Mr. Benn will be allowed to interpose an objection pursuant to his limited representation of the reporters. Is that acceptable or understood, at least, by all counsel?
MR. WHITE: Yes, Your Honor.
MR. BENN: Thank you, Your Honor.
MR. WALCZAK: Yes, Your Honor.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
Q. Good morning -- or afternoon. Would you please state your name.
A. Heidi Bernhard-Bubb.
Q. And what do you do, Ms. Bernhard-Bubb?
A. I'm a stay-at-home mother, and I freelance for the York Dispatch.
Q. And do you work part time for the newspaper?
A. That's correct.
Q. And that is a newspaper in York County?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Do you work for any other newspaper?
A. No, just the York Dispatch.
Q. And how long have you been working for the newspaper?
A. For four years.
Q. And are you assigned certain beats?
A. Yeah. I -- excuse me, I have several general assignments.
Q. And are you assigned to two municipal boards and one school board?
A. Right, that's what I have currently.
Q. And is one of those school board assignments the Dover Area School District?
A. It isn't currently, but it was previously.
Q. When did you cover the Dover Area School District?
A. From September of 2001 through July of this year.
Q. And I want to focus your testimony today on 2004. Do you recall whether you attended all of the Dover Area School Board's public meetings during that year?
A. Yes, I believe I did.
Q. And might you have missed one on October the 18th?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Other than that, your recollection is that you attended all of their public school board meetings?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. I want to go through a series of questions that will apply to all of the articles before we focus on the eight articles today. When you attend Dover area school board meetings, you generally sit in the same place?
A. Yes, near the front of the room.
Q. Why do you do that?
A. So I can hear and see.
Q. And do you leave meetings in the middle?
A. No, not usually.
Q. And when we look at a newspaper article, which we'll do very shortly, do you write the titles to the articles?
A. No. That is done by the editors.
Q. And there's also usually a sub -- is it called a title or a heading?
A. Subheadings.
Q. And you don't write those?
A. Right, that's correct, I don't write those.
Q. But the text in the article, that is your work product?
A. Yes.
Q. And do sometimes editors add text to your articles?
A. No.
Q. When you go to these meetings, do you typically take notes?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And is it your practice to take accurate notes?
A. Yes, absolutely.
Q. And do you occasionally write down quotes?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And do you have a practice as to how you do that in your notes?
A. I write them out longhand, and I always put them in quotation marks if it's a direct or exact verbatim quote.
Q. And you attempt to write down exactly what it is you heard?
A. That's correct.
Q. And when you go to write your articles, do you refer to your notes?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that the primary source that you use for writing the article?
A. Yes.
Q. And when it comes to the articles about the Dover Area School Board district meetings, typically when do you write those articles in relation to when the meeting occurred?
A. Typically the evening of the meeting, right after the meeting, and sometimes maybe the day or two after depending on the nature of whatever I'm writing.
Q. So it may depend on the deadline that you have?
A. That's correct.
Q. But usually it's written within a few hours or, at most, a day of the actual meeting?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. So the meeting is still fresh in your mind when you're writing the story?
A. Yes.
Q. Is there another newspaper in York County?
A. Yes, there is.
Q. And what is that newspaper?
A. That's the Daily Record.
Q. And do you cooperate on stories with reporters from the Daily Record?
A. Absolutely not. The Daily Record is our competition.
Q. So you don't have, like, joint ventures, joint articles?
A. No.
Q. Do you know a reporter named Joseph Maldonado?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is he?
A. He is a freelancer for the Daily Record, and he also covered the Dover Area School District.
Q. And was he covering the school board meetings in 2004 at the same time you were covering them?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. So typically you would both be at the same meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you ever discuss with him a story before you actually wrote it?
A. Never.
Q. Have you ever discussed a story with him, period?
A. Never.
Q. Now, I'm going to discuss with you eight articles that you wrote between June and November of 2004. And let me just ask you a couple of general questions that will apply to all eight of these articles. These are all articles about which you were questioned in your deposition a couple of weeks ago.
Do you testify here today knowing that you're under oath, that those articles accurately depict what happened at Dover School Board meetings?
A. Absolutely.
Q. And that the quotes attributed by you to people are accurate based on you having actually heard them say the respective comments?
A. Yes.
Q. And that when you wrote that someone, quote, said something, even though it's not in quotes, your characterization was, to the best of your ability, true and accurate?
A. Yes.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach the witness, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, could you put up Plaintiffs' Exhibit 804, please.
Q. Now, Ms. Bubb, since you have not been in the courtroom before -- let me just establish, you have not listened to any of the testimony in this case?
A. That's correct.
Q. This is your first day you've been in court?
A. Yes.
Q. You did not hear Mr. Buckingham's testimony today?
A. No.
Q. And nobody reported to you what he said?
A. No.
Q. Let me just tell you that you can look at the exhibit in two places. You can either look at the hard copy, we also project it up on the screen, which is the same thing that's on the monitor in front of you, whatever is easier for you. Do you recognize what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 804?
A. Yes.
Q. And what is that?
A. It's an article that I wrote that ran June 8th, 2004.
Q. And did you write this after attending the Dover Area School District board meeting on June the 7th?
A. Yes.
Q. As you sit here today, do you have any independent recollection of what happened at that meeting?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Have you had an opportunity to review this article before you came in here today?
A. Yes, I have.
Q. Is what you wrote in this article an accurate description of what you personally heard and observed on June 7th, 2004?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, I want to take a little bit more time in going through this article to help explain your writing style. The articles after this we'll go through more quickly.
Let me ask you, the practice that you applied in writing this article, is that your general practice that you use for all articles?
A. I'm sorry, can you be more specific?
Q. Well, you know what, let's go through this, and I'll come back and ask you that question later.
A. Okay.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the first highlighted passage beginning with the third paragraph. At the very top of the highlighted passage it reads, William Buckingham, board member and head of the curriculum committee, said he is unhappy with the proposed ninth-grade biology textbook because it teaches evolution and not creationism. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, there are no quotes in this paragraph. Is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. But it does say, in the middle of that paragraph, that Mr. Buckingham said he is unhappy with the proposed ninth-grade textbook. Could you explain to us how you wrote that, when you put quotes in and when you don't put quotes in?
A. Yes, I can do that. Primarily in this situation where I'm paraphrasing, paraphrasing is primarily used for the sake of concision and for the sake of accuracy.
A lot of times, for instance, during a meeting a dialogue might go on for over an hour. A person may say a number of things. Their position may become clear in response to questions, to dialogue with other board members, et cetera.
And so primarily paraphrasing is used to accurately reflect their position based on the content of the entire conversation and based on what they said. But whether I'm quoting something verbatim or whether I'm just attributing to them or paraphrasing a quote, it always comes directly from what they said.
Q. So, for instance, in that first paragraph that I just read to you, there are no quotes, but to your recollection, are there things that you could have put in quotes?
A. I don't know the exact language, but certainly it was something that he said, that he was unhappy with the textbook, et cetera.
Q. Now, let's look at the second paragraph there. Matt, if you could highlight that quote. And that reads, quote, It is inexcusable to have a book that says man descends from apes with nothing to counterbalance it, Buckingham said of the book. And he's referring to Miller and Levine.
So, now, that is in quotes and attributed to William Buckingham. So what does that mean that it's in quotes?
A. That means that it was taken verbatim from what he said and nothing was omitted, there was -- all of the language was his.
Q. And as you described your practice earlier, what you would have done is written down exactly those words in your notes?
A. That's correct.
Q. And do you put quotes around that?
A. Yes, I do, so I'll know that that's a direct quote.
Q. So when you go back to write the story a few hours later or the next day, you can look back and recall that that was a quote?
A. That's correct.
Q. And is that the practice you applied to that particular quote?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that the practice you apply to all the quotes that you write in your articles?
A. Yes.
Q. Let's look at the third paragraph there. And it says that Mr. Buckingham had not read the current text, current biology text. He said that the committee would be looking for another textbook. Again, there are no quotes in that paragraph. Correct?
A. Right.
Q. But you do say that he, quote, said that the committee will be looking for another textbook. So do I understand that at some point in the course of the meeting, that is, he said words to that effect?
A. That's correct.
Q. Let's look at the fourth paragraph there. And it reads, He said he had no objection to evolution being presented as a theory but believes it should not be presented as the only one to explain human existence. Now, again, there are no quotes in that paragraph?
A. Right, that's correct.
Q. And are there some things that could have been in quotes in that paragraph?
A. I believe so. I think "no objection to evolution being presented as a theory" could have been put into quotes and "human existence" could have been put into quotes.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the next paragraph. Now, here you have a quote attributed to a Noel Wenrich. Who is Noel Wenrich?
A. Noel Wenrich was a board member at the time.
Q. And, Matt, if you could highlight the quote. And if you could read that quote, please.
A. (Reading:) In science, there are competing theories. When you cease to present both, the remaining one becomes fact.
Q. So that would have been something that you heard him say, and what you wrote there was verbatim what you heard?
A. That's correct.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the next set of passages, please. Now, starting at the bottom of the first column there and going down to about the middle of the second column, is that something you wrote?
A. No, that was put in by the editors the following morning.
Q. So that was not something that was discussed at the meeting?
A. No.
Q. So that was given to provide some additional context?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Matt, if you could now highlight the next set of passages, please. Looking at the second column about halfway down, it talks about Superintendent Richard Nilsen. Now, are these comments that Dr. Nilsen made during the board meeting?
A. I believe these comments were made after, directly after the board meeting.
Q. And do you, on occasion, stay and ask questions of board members and administrators?
A. Almost every meeting, yes.
Q. And can you give us context about where you -- when and where this conversation took place?
A. Yes. This would be directly after the meeting. Dr. Nilsen sits at the front of the room at the table with the school board members. I typically go up to the front of the table and ask my questions there, try to catch him before he leaves.
Q. And let's look at the second paragraph there. It says, quote, The teachers cannot teach from a book that is not board-adopted. Is that an exact quote that you heard Dr. Nilsen make?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And then in the next paragraph it says, The district, quote, will always look for textbooks that give a balanced approach to all topics, end quote. Again, is that you directly quoting Dr. Nilsen?
A. Yes.
Q. And he said this to you at the end of the June 7th board meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, in the last paragraph of the amplified passage there, it says, When asked what this means for the evolution versus creationism debate, Nilsen said, Dover will, quote, present all options and theories, end quote. Now, the part that's in quotes, I presume, is what he said directly?
A. Right, that's correct.
Q. Now, just above that you say, What that means for the evolution versus creationism debate. Where did that term "creationism" come from?
A. From the content of the discussion during the meeting.
Q. Did that have anything to do with the question you asked Dr. Nilsen?
A. Yes. I asked him a question -- oh, I see what you're asking. Yeah, the sentence above that is putting into context his answer, and that was the question that I was asking him.
Q. And do you recall what that question was?
A. Probably something very similar. I don't remember exactly, but it was, you know, what does that mean when you're talking about evolution versus creationism, something along those lines.
Q. And do you recall asking him specifically about creationism?
A. Yes.
Q. So that is a word you would have used on June the 7th?
A. Yes. That's what I understood them to be talking about.
Q. Matt, if we could go to the next set of highlighted passages. Now, starting at the bottom of the second column on Exhibit 804 down through the middle of the third column, there's a quote from an ACLU staff attorney, Paula Knudsen. Is that something that happened on the evening of June 7th?
A. No, that would have happened the next morning, and, again, that was written by the editors.
Q. And at the end of that passage it says, Nilsen said he is not concerned about exposing the district to a possible lawsuit. When did he say that?
A. I believe I asked him a question to that effect at the meeting that evening, after the meeting.
Q. Let's go to the next passage. Now, here's a passage referencing Board President Alan Bonsell. And you write in there that he said the board would look for a book that teachers and board members could approve, one that presents a fair and balanced approach. Do you know what he was talking about there?
A. I can only say that he was -- that was in relation to the discussion brought up about the book that was being discussed.
Q. And, again, there are no quotes in that paragraph. Do you have a recollection of whether any of those words could have been in quotes?
A. I believe "fair and balanced approach" could have been in quotations.
Q. So that's something you remember Mr. Bonsell saying, "fair and balanced"?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And he was talking about the biology curriculum?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And the teaching of evolution?
A. Specifically the discussion about the biology textbook.
Q. And, Matt, if you could highlight the next passage, the last two paragraphs in the third column. Now, in that first paragraph it talks about Barrie Callahan. Now, she's a former board member?
A. Yes.
Q. And it says, Since last year, when she was still a member of the board, Barrie Callahan has been questioning the board as to why the new book was not approved.
A. Yes.
Q. So you had heard Ms. Callahan raise the issue of the need for a new biology book before that meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And she raised it again at this meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And then in the next paragraph it says, Buckingham said, although the book had been available for review since May, 2003, he had just recently reviewed the book himself and was disturbed the book was laced with Darwinism. I think I read that correctly.
A. Yes.
Q. Does that look right?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, again, there are no quotes in that paragraph. Do you have a recollection as to whether any part of that statement attributed to Mr. Buckingham could have been in quotes?
A. Yes. "Laced with Darwinism" could have been put into quotations and maybe the part about him being disturbed.
Q. So you remember him saying that he was, quote, disturbed, and remember him saying, laced with Darwinism?
A. Yes.
Q. And if you would turn the page now, please. Matt, if you could highlight the next passage, please. The first two paragraphs there refer to a resident named Max Pell.
A. Yes.
Q. Now, is this Mr. Pell speaking during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you've attributed to him a quote that reads, quote, Creationism is a religious theory, he said, why does it have to be taught in biology class, end quote. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Does that mean you heard Max Pell say those exact words?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And that's what you wrote in your notes?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. So he mentioned the word "creationism" as he stood up to make his comments to the school board?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And if you could go down to the third paragraph. Matt, if you could highlight. Now, that paragraph talks about Mr. Buckingham believing that the separation of church and state is mythical and not something he supports. Now, is that something that Mr. Buckingham said during the meeting?
A. No, he said that after the meeting.
Q. And what was the context of you hearing that?
A. I was asking him questions about whether he was concerned that he would be in danger of violating the separation of church and state.
Q. Now, again, there's nothing in quotes in that paragraph, but are there things that you distinctly remember him saying?
A. Yes. He did use the word "mythical," and he did say that it was not something he supports.
Q. And when you say not supports, that's the separation of church and state?
A. That's correct.
Q. And the last passage that I want to direct your attention to in this article are the last two paragraphs in that column. And here you are attributing statements to Michael Baksa?
A. Yes.
Q. And who is he?
A. He's the assistant superintendent of Dover Area School District.
Q. And when did you hear these statements?
A. Again, after the meeting, I asked him questions.
Q. Now, in that last paragraph, it says, quote, He said that he would present options to the curriculum committee and give the committee more information about how the district teaches evolution and creationism. Now, did he use the term "creationism"?
A. I can't recall if he used the term exactly, but I asked the question with the term "creationism" in it, asking him how the district teaches evolution and how it addresses creationism if it comes up in the class.
Q. So your question to him would have contained the word "creationism"?
A. That's correct.
Q. And did he object to that terminology?
A. No, he did not.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the term "creationism" in this article. Now, Ms. Bernhard-Bubb, the term "creationism" appears throughout this article. Matt, if you could put the second page up there, as well. And we've highlighted all the times that "creationism" appears here in orange. But the only time that I believe it appears in this article in quotes is when Mr. Pell was using it.
A. Okay, yes.
Q. And yet it appears, I believe, nine or ten times in this article.
A. Yes.
Q. Why did you use the term "creationism" throughout this article?
A. Because that's what I heard the board members talking about.
Q. So you, that evening, heard board members use the term "creationism"?
A. Yes.
Q. And who do you recall saying the word "creationism"?
A. Mr. Buckingham made reference to it specifically, and I believe Mr. Wenrich and Mr. Bonsell.
Q. And in what context did they use the word "creationism"?
A. They were talking about the biology book. It was in the context of the conversation about the biology book, about presenting another theory, an alternative to evolution.
Q. And you also -- you yourself used the word "creationism" in questions that you posed to Mr. Buckingham, Mr. Nilsen, and Mr. Baksa?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in their response, they didn't correct you in your phraseology?
A. No.
Q. And, now, you wrote the article that evening after the board meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. So this would have been 10, 11 o'clock on Monday night, June the 7th?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you e-mailed the article to your editors that evening?
A. Yes.
Q. And the York Dispatch is an afternoon publication?
A. That's correct.
Q. So it would come out on Tuesday afternoon?
A. Yes.
Q. And I think you mentioned that your editors may have added some passages?
A. They did to this one, yes, the following morning.
Q. And do they change or add to what you have reported?
A. No.
Q. Now, did you receive any complaints about this article, about whether it was accurate?
A. No, I did not.
Q. So no board member came and told you that your reporting was inaccurate?
A. No.
Q. Did any administrator tell you that?
A. No.
Q. Did anybody tell you that?
A. No.
Q. Did anyone from the school district ask you to print a correction or retraction?
A. No.
Q. Let's just cover all the articles at this point. Did you ever receive a complaint or concern about the accuracy of any of your articles about the school board in 2004?
A. No, not specifically.
Q. You say "not specifically." Let's hold that for a minute. We'll come back to that. To your knowledge, did your editors receive any complaints about your reporting on the Dover Area School Board?
A. No, not to my knowledge.
Q. And to your knowledge, did your editors receive any requests for corrections or retractions about any of the Dover Area School District articles?
A. No.
Q. And would you have known if they had gotten complaints about your reporting?
A. Yes, I would have known.
Q. Now, you said that you didn't hear -- you didn't receive any complaints from Dover Area School District board members or administrators specifically.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you hear complaints not specifically?
A. In general, starting mostly I think in November when --
Q. I'm sorry, this would be November of 2004?
A. Excuse me, November, 2004, there were general comments made during board meetings about the media in general, but no specific comments.
Q. And was this after the board had already passed the policy?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you have, for instance, national -- representatives from national media outlets attending these meetings?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And do you recall what national media reporters were there?
A. I believe that was during the time that Nightline was there doing a piece on the district. I believe Time Magazine had been there. I think reporters from the Associated Press, Washington Post, and I think maybe The New York Times had been there.
Q. And do you know whether the board members knew that these reporters were there?
A. I can't speak to that.
Q. And when you say that they made complaints, this was during the public board meetings?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall what kind of complaints they made?
A. General complaints that the media had gotten it wrong or, you know, blown it out of proportion, that kind of thing.
Q. But did any representative of the Dover Area School District ever talk to you specifically about something you had written and claimed that it was wrong?
A. No.
Q. Matt, if you could pull up Plaintiffs' Exhibit 805, please.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I show you what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 805. Do you recognize this?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. Is this about a particular board meeting?
A. This is in reference to the June 7th board meeting.
Q. And the date of this article is June the 9th?
A. That's correct.
Q. Is this a follow-up article to explore issues raised by the June 7th meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And your editors asked you to work on this piece?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the first three paragraphs. In that first paragraph, it says, The quest of several Dover Area School Board members to find a high school biology textbook that teaches both evolution and creationism could put the district at odds with the U.S. Supreme Court and at risk of a lawsuit. Is that based on what you had observed on June the 7th?
A. Yes, that's based on the discussion at the meeting on the 7th.
Q. And in that next paragraph, you talk about William Buckingham and say that he was disturbed by a proposed high school biology textbook because it was laced with Darwinism?
A. Yes.
Q. Again, there are no quotes in that paragraph, but as I believe you testified before, "disturbed" and "laced with Darwinism" could have been in quotes?
A. That's correct.
Q. And those are things that you recall Mr. Buckingham actually saying?
A. Yes.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the second set of passages. If you'll look down, I think it's the fifth paragraph, it starts with, A recommendation. It says, A recommendation on the book will come from the curriculum committee, which also includes board members Sheila Harkins, Casey Brown, Buckingham -- and Casey Brown. Buckingham said the committee would look for a book that presented both creationism and evolution.
Do you recall Bill Buckingham saying that they were looking for a book that presented both creationism and evolution?
A. I don't know -- he didn't say that exact sentence. He said -- that goes back to the discussion, though, where he was talking about wanting to look for a book that might contain creationism and looking for a balance to the theory of evolution.
Q. But you did hear him say that he was looking for a book that presented creationism?
A. Yes.
Q. And the next set of paragraphs at the bottom of column one going over to the first paragraph of column two, it talks about a Robert Boston, spokesman for Americans United for Separation of Church and State.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you talk to Mr. Boston?
A. I did.
Q. And when was that?
A. I had called him -- I believe it would have been on Tuesday, June 8th.
Q. And you wrote in there that the district will be inviting a lawsuit if it chooses a textbook that teaches creationism?
A. Yes.
Q. And, again, there are no quotes, but could any of that have been in quotes?
A. I can't recall exactly, but that's based on what Mr. Boston told me.
Q. If you could, Matt, highlight the next set of passages. If you look at the bottom of the second column and over onto the first paragraph on the next page, you say, But Buckingham said he is unconcerned about violating the separation of church and state.
A. Yes.
Q. When did he say that?
A. That's going back to the questions that I asked him after the June 7th meeting.
Q. And then on the next page, at the top, you write, Although he swore to uphold the Constitution when he became a school board member, Buckingham said he didn't come to uphold the separation of church and state, which he sees as a myth, and the Supreme Court's interpretation.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that, again, something he said to you on -- after the board meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. And, again, there are no quotes there, but is what you wrote there the essence of what he said?
A. Yes. And some of that is his language, again, saying that it was a myth, the Supreme Court's interpretation.
Q. And one last set of passages here. If you would look at the last two-thirds of that column, first column on the second page, you're talking about Assistant Superintendent Baksa?
A. Yes.
Q. And when did you have that conversation with him?
A. I called him -- again, that would have been on Tuesday, the 8th.
Q. And in the third highlighted passage, you wrote, However, he said teachers may make reference to creationism in class, and the district would not prevent students from pursuing other theories. Now, is "creationism" a term he used with you on June the 8th?
A. Yes, specifically in response to a question I was asking him about how they dealt with it if creationism comes up in class.
Q. And then in that next paragraph you said, Baksa said -- The district has not rejected the proposed new textbook, Baksa said, but it will continue to look for a book that will make everyone happy. Again, is that something he said to you on Tuesday, June the 8th?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's after you discussed with him the reference to creationism?
A. Yes, that's correct.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, if you could highlight Plaintiffs' Exhibit 806, please.
Q. Do you recognize this article?
A. Yes.
Q. And is this something that you wrote about the June 14th Dover Area School District board meeting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And when did you write this?
A. The evening of the 14th after the meeting.
Q. And do you have an independent memory as you sit here today of what happened at that board meeting?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And prior to your testimony here today, did you review this article?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And is what you wrote in this article accurate?
A. Yes.
Q. And the quotes that you attribute to people in this article, are they based on what you actually heard?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, the title here says, Church/state issue divides, and then the subtitle is, Creationism draws 100 to Dover meeting. Now, is that something you wrote?
A. No, that's not.
Q. That's something added by the editors?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And there's a picture here.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's taken by somebody from the newspaper?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And did the -- so that would be the photographer?
A. Yes, John Pavoncello.
Q. And do you know if Mr. Pavoncello attended the meeting?
A. Yes, he was there.
Q. And do you know who wrote the caption under the photograph?
A. John wrote that.
Q. And did you consult with him about that?
A. No.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the first several paragraphs. Now, in that first paragraph, it says -- it's pretty hard to read there, but I think it says, Nearly a hundred people -- can you make it out on the copy you have?
A. I can't, but I believe it's something to -- nearly a hundred residents, students, and teachers attended, either residents or parents.
Q. To continue debating whether creationism should be taught alongside evolution in the high school biology curriculum. So there were nearly a hundred people at that meeting?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And is that a relatively large number for the Dover School Board?
A. Yes.
Q. What do average meetings draw, if there's an average?
A. Maybe 10, 15 people.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the next set of passages. If you look at the bottom, the very last two-line paragraph over to the top of the next page, it talks about Board Member and Curriculum Committee Member Casey Brown said it is her duty as a board member to uphold her oath to support the Constitution and the school code, which she said is clear about the separation of church and state.
A. Yes.
Q. And you say Casey Brown said that?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And so you remember her talking about living up to her oath to maintain the separation of church and state?
A. Yes, that's what I wrote.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the last few passages on that first column on the second page. There's a subheading there. Is that the proper term?
A. Yes.
Q. It says, The least offensive option.
A. Yes.
Q. And it reads that Trudy Peterman, who is the principal at Dover Area School District?
A. She was at the time.
Q. And Bertha Spahr, who is the head of the science department?
A. Yes.
Q. It says that they said the faculty considered that Dover was a religious community when they selected the book which they believed was the least offensive option?
A. Yes.
Q. And that's something that they said during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. Yes.
Q. So they talked about how Dover was a religious community?
A. That's what they said, yes.
Q. And that they believed that the Miller and Levine book was the least offensive option?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, if you go to the third paragraph among those that are highlighted, it says, Brown quoted. And there were two Browns on the school board then. Correct?
A. Yes, there were.
Q. And do you know which Brown --
A. That was Casey Brown.
Q. And the other Brown was her husband, Jeff?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And you write, Brown quoted from the teacher's edition that the purpose of the section on evolution was to, quote, help students understand the evolutionary world view and promote understanding without compelling belief, end quote.
A. Yes.
Q. And so, in fact, that is a verbatim quote of what Casey Brown said at the meeting?
A. Yes, that's right.
Q. And in the last two paragraphs of the ones we've highlighted here, Bertha Spahr is talking about the state standards do not include creationism?
A. Yes.
Q. And do you recall her using the word "creationism"?
A. I do.
Q. Now, I want to go to the first four paragraphs at the top of the second column on the second page of Plaintiffs' Exhibit 806. And I believe the subtitle is, Opponents' position. Can you tell what that says?
A. Yeah, I believe so.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the second paragraph there, please. Could you read the quote there, please, Ms. Bernhard-Bubb?
A. (Reading:) Nearly 2,000 years ago someone died on a Cross for us, shouldn't we have the courage to stand up for Him, he asked.
Q. Now, that's in quotes?
A. Yes.
Q. So does that mean it's verbatim what you heard?
A. Yes.
Q. So you wrote down, as best you could, exactly what you heard and you put quotes around it in your notes?
A. Yes.
Q. In the next paragraph down, it says, Board Members Alan Bonsell and Noel Wenrich agreed with Buckingham saying creationism should be taught to balance evolution.
Now, again, there's nothing in quotes. Was that written based on you hearing Mr. Bonsell say that creationism should be taught?
A. That was based on the content of the conversation, primarily what Mr. Buckingham was saying and Mr. Bonsell and Mr. Wenrich agreeing.
Q. So they agreed with Mr. Buckingham's statement that creationism should be included in the curriculum?
A. Yeah. Yes, they were agreeing with Mr. Buckingham's position.
Q. Now, in that next paragraph it says, Buckingham apologized for offending any teachers or residents of the community with his remarks but was unapologetic about his belief that the country was founded on Christianity and not other religions and that a, quote, liberal agenda was chipping away at the rights of Christians in this country. Did I read that accurately?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you wrote, The country was founded on Christianity.
A. Yes. That was something he said.
Q. And you remember him saying that?
A. Yes, something to that effect.
Q. And then you have a quote, Liberal agenda was chipping away at the rights of Christians in the country.
A. Yes.
Q. And that's in quotes, so that's verbatim what Mr. Buckingham said?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, there's been some significant dispute in this case about whether Mr. Buckingham said the quote, Nearly 2,000 years ago someone died on a Cross for us, shouldn't we have the courage to stand up for Him.
Is there any doubt, as you sit here today, that you heard him make that statement at the June 14th, 2004 Dover Area School Board meeting?
A. I have no doubt that he said that.
Q. And he made that statement during the public portion of the meeting?
A. Yes, during -- it wasn't during public comment, it was during the board discussion, but it was made in public.
Q. And that would have been where?
A. In the -- where the meeting was held, he was sitting at the front of the room at the board table.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the next paragraphs. In that middle paragraph on the second column you say, His remarks, referring to Mr. Buckingham, were echoed by his wife, Charlotte Buckingham, who said that teaching evolution was in direct opposition to God's teachings and that the people of Dover could not, in good conscience, allow the district to teach anything but creationism.
Do you recall Charlotte Buckingham using the word "creationism"?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And then in the next set of paragraphs, beginning with "the minister's view" going to the top of that third column, who is Warren Eshbach?
A. He's a resident of the district, retired minister.
Q. He is a minister?
A. Yes.
Q. And you wrote there that -- in that first paragraph that he said he was concerned that the issue was polarizing the district?
A. Yes.
Q. And is "polarizing" a word he used?
A. I believe it was.
Q. And then in that next paragraph you said that he said that he believes people might believe in both God and evolution, adding that while public schools should have values, religious beliefs should be taught at home and church. Eshbach also said he was concerned that compelling the staff to teach creationism might expose the district to legal ramifications that could impact the taxpayers.
Now, there are two aspects to that. The first one was that he expressed concern that religious beliefs should be taught at home and church?
A. Yes, he said something to that effect.
Q. And he said that during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then he expressed concerns about the teaching of creationism?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And do you recall him using the term "creationism"?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And then one last passage here, the next paragraph down, again, we're back to a Mr. Robert Boston from Americans United for Separation of Church and State. Now, was he at the meeting?
A. No, he was not.
Q. And so are you referring back to when you had spoken to him the week before?
A. I'm making reference -- I say, has said, making reference to the previous article.
Q. And at the very end of that paragraph it reads, quote, Buckingham said he did not believe the members of AU know what it means to be American.
A. Yes.
Q. So he said words to that effect?
A. That's correct.
Q. So he was disparaging the organization?
A. That's what he said.
Q. And did he say that during the meeting?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. So it was while the meeting was going on and not afterwards privately to you?
A. Right.
Q. Now, Matt, if you could highlight the uses of creationism. Now, in looking at this June 15th article, creationism is used in the subheading.
A. Yes.
Q. Is that right?
A. Yes. Sorry.
Q. And creationism is used in the caption of the photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. And creationism is used many times in the article?
A. That's correct.
Q. And I know you said that you've heard Mr. Buckingham or had heard Mr. Buckingham use the term "creationism"?
A. Yes.
Q. And Ms. Spahr used the term "creationism"?
A. She did.
Q. And Mr. Bonsell?
A. I don't believe Mr. Bonsell used the term at this meeting. I just believe he was saying something else should be taught to balance evolution. He was agreeing with Mr. Buckingham saying it.
Q. Do you recall Mr. Bonsell using "creationism" at the June 7th meeting?
A. That's the only time, yes.
Q. But you do remember him using it on June 7th?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Wenrich used the term "creationism"?
A. Again, I believe at this -- in reference to this article the only person on the board who used that term was Mr. Buckingham.
Q. But you remember Mr. Wenrich using that term on June the 7th?
A. Yes, and then agreeing with him during the discussion about creationism at this meeting.
Q. And you heard Charlotte Buckingham use creationism?
A. Yes.
Q. And Reverend Eshbach used creationism in his comments?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Matt, if you could pull up Exhibit 807, please.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I show you what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 807. Do you recognize this document?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And this is an August 3rd article that you wrote?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And you're reporting on a Dover Area School Board meeting that occurred on August the 2nd?
A. Yes.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the creationism and intelligent design. Now, we've highlighted in orange here the uses of creationism and then highlighted in blue the uses of intelligent design. Is this -- is the August 2nd meeting the first time you heard school board members mention intelligent design?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So you do not recall any board members using the term "intelligent design" before August 2nd at a school board meeting?
A. No, that was the first time that I heard it, at a board meeting.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the paragraphs under the subheading "companion." Now, in that first paragraph under the subheading "companion," you wrote, William Buckingham, the head of the school board curriculum committee, who brought up the issue of teaching creationism in June, said he would approve the biology textbook, the 2004 edition of Prentice Hall Biology, only in conjunction with a companion text that teaches intelligent design. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, intelligent design is in quotes. Is that a phrase that Bill Buckingham used?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And he said that he would only approve the biology text in conjunction with that companion text?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. Now, in that next paragraph it says, Buckingham proposed a book titled Of Pandas and People: The Central Question of Biological Origins. Is this the first reference that you heard at a school board meeting to the book Of Pandas and People?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And then later on in the highlighted passage it talks about how there was a tie vote on the biology book.
A. Yes, there was.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the second set of passages. And under deadline it says, Buckingham proposed waiting to approve the Prentice Hall Biology until the other book had been reviewed. However, a delayed vote would have meant that the students and teachers would not have a biology text for the new year. Is that something that became clear during that meeting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So both Mr. Buckingham proposed waiting, that was clear?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And it was clear that if, in fact, they didn't approve that biology book, the students would not have it in time for the new school year?
A. Yes, I believe that was a concern.
Q. Now, in that next paragraph there's a quote attributed to Jeff Brown. And it reads, quote, I don't like blackmail, I don't like it that if we don't approve this other book, then that means no book, end quote, said a visibly upset Jeff Brown.
Now, the fact that that passage is in quotation marks, does that mean that's a verbatim quote of what he said at that meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then in the next two paragraphs there's reference to a Joshua Rowland?
A. That's a typo. Yeah, Joshua Rowand.
Q. And who is he?
A. He's the student board representative.
Q. And he spoke at that meeting?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And in the next paragraph there's a quote that says, In 90 days of class, we only spent one day on evolution, so because of this one issue they don't get new books, end quote. Is that something that he said at that meeting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And do you recall if he spoke during the public comment section?
A. No, I believe he spoke during the board discussion, but it was in public.
Q. So do the student representatives to the board get an opportunity to present their views?
A. Not typically, but in this case they did allow it. Actually, I think they always -- they don't typically speak, but I think they always allow them to if they have a comment.
Q. And in the next paragraph it says, Buckingham maintained that the books should only be approved together, saying, quote, We have an opportunity to level the playing field, what is everyone so afraid of, end quote. And that quote, again, is verbatim for what you heard Mr. Buckingham say?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. Now, in that next paragraph it refers to Casey Brown and indicates that she said that as a member of the curriculum committee, she had read the proposed supplemental text from cover to cover and that she didn't believe it fit with the district's curriculum, was not sure about the concept of intelligent design, and was sure that it contained, quote, bad science, end quote. You recall her saying "bad science"?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. And you recall her saying that she had reviewed the entire Pandas book?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then in that last set of highlighted paragraphs there it talks about a heated exchange between Yingling -- and who is Yingling?
A. Angie Zeigler Yingling. She was a school board member at the time.
Q. And it says that she decided to change her vote to move the process forward. And then in that last highlighted paragraph it says, The Prentice Hall Biology book was approved five to three. So it was approved because Angie Yingling changed her vote?
A. That's correct.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I show you what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 808. Do you recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. And what is it?
A. It's an article that I wrote regarding the August 2nd board meeting that ran on August 3rd, 2004.
Q. And did this run as a companion piece to the article we just looked at?
A. It did.
Q. Now, Matt, if you could highlight that second paragraph. Now, again, it makes reference to Robert Boston at Americans United for Separation of Church and State and says that they're inviting a lawsuit. Now, did you talk to Mr. Boston again, or is this --
A. It's creating a context for the next sentence. So I did not speak to him again.
Q. In the next sentence there you say, William Buckingham said he has received a letter from Americans United threatening to sue?
A. Yes.
Q. And did he say that during the public meeting?
A. I can't recall that, to be honest. It was either during the public meeting or directly after when I was asking him questions.
Q. But he made reference to a letter that he had received from Americans United threatening to sue?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. And did you ever see that letter?
A. No, I didn't.
Q. So he didn't share that letter with you after the meeting?
A. No, he didn't.
Q. If you could look at the second -- middle of the second column, the paragraph says, Buckingham said that the Thomas More Law Center had recommended the text Of Pandas and People. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that something he said during the meeting?
A. After the meeting.
Q. So he said that to you?
A. Yes.
Q. And he identified the Thomas More Law Center?
A. Yes, he made reference to some sort of counsel during the meeting but didn't say specifically who it was, so I went up to him after the meeting to ask him more questions.
Q. And he did, at that time, disclose to you the identity of this other counsel?
A. Yes, he did.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I show you an exhibit marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 809. Do you recognize this?
A. I do.
Q. Is this a September 8th article that you wrote about the September 7th Dover board meeting?
A. It is.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the paragraph beginning at the bottom of the first column going down the second column. Now, in the middle of that second column you have, Mr. Buckingham said it is important to distinguish between the concept of creationism, which refers to God, and the creation story in the Bible and intelligent design, which states that some being caused life to begin somehow. He said the distinction is important because intelligent design is not specific to one religion.
A. Yes.
Q. So Mr. Buckingham, sometime during that meeting, made those comments?
A. Yes, he did, specifically to me after the meeting.
Q. So it was not during the meeting?
A. No.
Q. And do you recall him using the term "creationism"?
A. Yes.
Q. And then in the third column there's a subheading, Residents speak out. Is that you reporting on what residents said during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And there's a quote attributed to an Andrea Heilman, identifies her as a resident, and it says, quote, I am responsible for my children's religious education, not some public educator. And then it continues, We need to let educators educate and let parents and religious leaders nurture, end quote. Did I read that correctly?
A. Yes, you did.
Q. And since that's in quotes, that's verbatim what you heard somebody get up and say?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And that would have been an Andrea Heilman?
A. Yes.
Q. And how did you know her name was Andrea Heilman?
A. She identified herself for the record, but I also went up to her after the meeting to verify her name and the spelling of her name.
Q. So she specifically talked to the board about her children's religious education?
A. Yes.
Q. And how she should -- she's the one who should be responsible for her children's religious upbringing?
A. That's what she said, what I wrote.
Q. And then you have a quote attributed to another woman there, Irene Jurvale-Austen. Is that somebody who also made comments during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. And it says that she is a biology teacher for 35 years at the high school level and at York College and Millersville University, and then it reads that she said in all her years of teaching evolution, she had never seen a student or adult lose faith in God after learning about Darwin and the theory of natural selection. Is that something she said during her comments?
A. Yes.
Q. And then you have a quote from her. It reads, I wonder what the motivation in bringing in the Pandas book; if it is evangelism in the public schools, then it is inappropriate, she said. It's a faith issue. To teach it as science is a perversion, end quote. Again, that's a direct quote of what she said to the board?
A. Yes.
Q. And she said that during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A. That's correct.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I'm sorry, I'm going to direct you to another exhibit, 813.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q. I show you what's been marked as Plaintiffs' Exhibit 813. Is this something you wrote?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. Now, I believe you testified earlier that you were not able to attend the October 18th board meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. And do you recall why that was?
A. I had another -- I don't remember who it was, but I had another school board or municipality that had a meeting on the same night, and the editor decided to send me to the other meeting.
Q. And did they then, the next morning, ask you to write an article?
A. Yes, they did.
Q. So you tried contacting some people on the morning of the 19th?
A. That's correct.
Q. And in the first five or six paragraphs, you make reference to Casey Brown. Did you speak with Ms. Brown on the morning of the 19th?
A. I did.
Q. And you have a quote attributed to her about halfway down that first column, and it reads, quote, There seems to be a determination among some board members to have our district serve as an example to flout the legal rulings of the Supreme Court, to flout the law of the land. They don't seem to care. I think they need to ask the taxpayers if they want to be guinea pigs, end quote, Casey Brown said this morning. Is that something she said to you?
A. It is.
Q. And that's a verbatim quote?
A. Yes.
Q. And then towards the bottom of that column you have another quote attributed to her. Quote, It's a waste of money, how do we answer to the taxpayers, we are committing the district and taxpayers to a no-win fight. I believe if you want to make a change, you go to the legislature, end quote, she said. Again, is that a direct quote attributed to her?
A. It is.
Q. At the bottom of the second column you make reference to William Baksa.
A. Yes.
Q. And then in there you say that the administration and teachers offered an alternative curriculum recommendation that did not make specific reference to intelligent design. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And is that something Mr. Baksa told you the next morning, the morning after the board meeting?
A. That's correct.
Q. And then if you'll turn the page, in the first two paragraphs there, you make reference to Nilsen and Baksa. Did you speak with both of them?
A. I did.
Q. That would have been the morning of the 19th?
A. Yes.
Q. And there it says that they told you that they were not sure how the new wording would be applied. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And that they would be meeting with the high school science department to develop specific language that would be used in each class to introduce the curriculum. Is that correct?
A. Yes, that's correct.
Q. And then there's a quote attributed to Mr. Baksa: Of Pandas and People would still be used only as a reference text, and added that the teachers would not spend a lot of class time teaching intelligent design but would only introduce the theory.
A. Yes.
Q. Actually, I guess the only thing that's in quotes is the book. Is that right?
A. Right, that's just something he said, yeah.
Q. But he said the teachers would not spend a lot of class time teaching intelligent design?
A. Right, he said something to that effect.
Q. And do you recall him talking about teaching intelligent design?
A. I don't know whether he used that word or if my question was to him, how are you going to teach this if you've made it part of the curriculum. But it would have been either him saying that or in response to my question.
Q. Now let's turn to Exhibit 810, which I believe I gave you just a moment ago. Do you recognize this exhibit?
A. I do.
Q. And this is an article you wrote about the November 1st Dover School Board?
A. Yes.
Q. Matt, if you could highlight the first paragraph. In that first paragraph you write that Dover Area School Board's decision two weeks ago requiring intelligent design theory to be included as a high school biology reference text dominated last night's board meeting with former board members criticizing the move and one denouncing others on the panel and quitting the meeting.
Is that an accurate characterization of what happened that night?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. So most of the meeting was, in fact, dominated by a discussion of intelligent design?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, the next two paragraphs there, it refers to Noel Wenrich.
A. Yes.
Q. And he made comments during the public comment section of the meeting?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. So he had resigned already?
A. He had resigned, but this would have been his last meeting as a board member.
Q. And when he made these comments, do you recall whether he made them while sitting as a board member or did he make them from somewhere else?
A. He made them from the podium where the public makes their comments.
Q. And was that unusual for a board member to make comments from there?
A. Yes.
Q. And you write there that Wenrich said that he and residents in the audience have been personally attacked and insulted at the last meeting by Buckingham and by the board. Did he say words to that effect?
A. Yes, he did.
Q. So that's an accurate characterization of what he said?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And then you have a quote attributed to him. Could you read that quote, please?
A. (Reading:) I was referred to as unpatriotic, and my religious beliefs were questioned. I served in the U.S. Army for 11 years and six years on this board. Seventeen years of my life have been devoted to public service, and my religion is personal. It's between me, God, and my pastor.
Q. And that's in quotes?
A. Yes.
Q. So that would have been a verbatim quote of what Mr. Wenrich said?
A. That's correct.
Q. Now, there's some ellipses in there?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you leave some things out?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. Was there anything pertinent you left out?
A. I believe it was repetitious, so no.
Q. And if you could look at the first two paragraphs in the second column. It says, Board President Alan Bonsell told Wenrich he was out of line in making comments of a personal nature which he had asked the public to avoid at the beginning of the meeting, saying that he was disappointed in the conduct of some board members and residents at the meeting two weeks ago.
Is that an accurate paraphrasing of what Mr. Bonsell said?
A. Yes, it is.
Q. And then it says, Mr. Wenrich was asked to leave the podium?
A. Yes.
Q. Who asked him to leave the podium?
A. Mr. Bonsell.
Q. And Mr. Bonsell was the board president at the time?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And then you have a quote that you write that Mr. Wenrich shouted from the front of the room that he had enjoyed his service but could, quote, no longer sit with these people, end quote. That's a verbatim quote?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you say that he shouted from the front of the room, is that where the exit would have been?
A. No, the exit was at the back of the room.
Q. So he went back to his seat at the table, or did he leave the meeting?
A. He went back to his seat at the table, and I believe he got his coat and then said what he said and then left the meeting.
Q. And then at the bottom of that second column you make reference to Casey Brown and Larry Snoke. We've talked about Casey Brown. Who is Larry Snoke?
A. He is also a former school board member that attends most of the meetings.
Q. And in that first paragraph in the third column you write that Snoke said the board was dividing the community.
A. Yes.
Q. And do you remember Mr. Snoke using the word "dividing"?
A. Yes, I believe he did.
Q. And then in that next paragraph you wrote that Brown suggested that the board rescind its decision on intelligent design but offer an elective class on religions of the world so that students could be exposed to all of the world's faiths. Is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And she was no longer on the board at this time?
A. That's correct.
Q. So she stood up as a resident and made this during public comment?
A. Yes, she did.
Q. If you could look down two paragraphs from there, and it says, The decision. Do you see where I'm at?
A. Yes.
Q. And the decision you're referring to, the decision to add intelligent design theory to the curriculum?
A. Yes.
Q. And it reads, The decision could make Dover a national test case over what can be taught in public schools. Did somebody say that?
A. That's my -- that's my writing, but that's in reference to things that were said by board members. Casey Brown had said something to that effect. I'm not sure of the order of this, but in another article I had interviewed some people from the National Science Center for Education in Oakland. They had said something to that effect.
Q. So this is not your commentary on --
A. It's based on the content of other conversations I had had.
Q. Pretty prescient comment, wouldn't you agree?
A. Yeah.
MR. WHITE: Objection.
MR. WALCZAK: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: We'll sustain the objection to the last question, strike that last answer, and you may cross.
I don't know, I'll just interject at this point, I'm willing to stay until 5:00 to get as much as we can in, but I don't know if we're going to get both reporters done.
I trust that doesn't present a problem if we have to come back, unless you want to break now, Counsel. But I'll stay -- we typically, as you know, have ended our days at 4:30, but --
MR. WHITE: Your Honor, since we will be coming back for Maldonado tomorrow, it might be a good idea to get it all done tomorrow.
THE COURT: Mr. Benn, does that present a problem for you?
MR. BENN: That will be fine.
THE COURT: Why don't we then end our trial day here. It's probably an opportune time to do that to give you the time that you need without compressing it at the end of the day today, and we will reconvene and pick up your cross-examination at 9:00 a.m. tomorrow. Anything else for today?
MR. BENN: No, Your Honor.
THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow.
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