Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District
Trial transcript: Day 17 (October 28), AM Session, Part 1
THE COURT: Good morning to all, and we continue with testimony of our last witness yesterday, and she may retake the stand.
MR. BENN: Your Honor, excuse me, I was a little remiss yesterday when I introduced myself as counsel on behalf of the reporters. I would also like to introduce my two co-counsel, put them on the record as well, Terence Barna --
THE COURT: Ma'am, you can take the stand while he's doing this.
MR. BENN: Terence Barna and Traci McPate, both from my office.
THE COURT: Very well, we'll note their appearances.
And you may commence your cross examination.
Q Good morning.
A Good morning.
MR. WHITE: I'm sorry, Your Honor, but the screws just popped out of your microphone.
THE COURT: Technical malfunction. We could ask Mr. Thompson to hold the microphone, but that would probably be beyond the call of duty.
MR. WHITE: Job for GSA. Maybe if I can just rest it.
THE COURT: That will probably work. We're all set. After that auspicious start to our Friday, you may proceed.
MR. WHITE: I promise I won't touch anything else.
THE COURT: All right.
Q This is a continuation from your testimony yesterday; you're still under oath.
Your full-time job is stay-at-home mom, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And you have two young children, a three and a half year old and an eight month old.
A Right.
Q And your freelance writing is a way to supplement your income.
A That's correct.
Q The Dispatch pays you about 40 or $50 per story?
A That's correct.
Q And you write about six to ten articles a week?
A Yes.
Q Now, you read the editorial page of the York Dispatch, correct?
A Yes.
Q So you understand the position the Dispatch takes on various issues?
A It would depend on the editorial but, yes, and on the writer.
Q So the answer is yes?
A I would say that I understand positions taken by the various writers, the various editorial writers.
Q You get your assignments from the editors of the York Dispatch also, correct?
A In a sense. I have general assignments wherein I cover the meetings of, like I said yesterday, two municipalities and a school board. It's been varying amounts of school boards and municipalities. So in that sense I have the general assignment I go to the meetings and report on what happened.
Sometimes I will be assigned particular things by the editors. Those are usually features. For instance, I did a story on a girl that was doing a motorcycle ride for Cystic Fibrosis that she put together in honor of her father who just died, that kind of thing.
Q But sometimes the editors tell you what they re interested and what they're not interested in as it relates to stories, correct?
A Only in the sense that -- like, for instance, after a meeting, I'm call them and say hey, this is what happened at meeting, and they'll tell me what they're interested in, what they have space for the next day in the paper, what I can wait to write the next day; in that sense they do.
So that's more of an issue of planning and how much space they have in the paper, that kind of thing.
Q And then you write the stories that are of interest to the editors as a result of that.
MR. BENN: Objection, Your Honor. I think the nature of your Court order relates to the fact that we re supposed to be asking questions as it pertains to the articles in issue, and not in terms as to what the editors think, what the newspaper's position is, but rather what it is that Ms. Bernard-Bubb wrote.
MR. WHITE: Yesterday there was some questioning about her assignments and her beat, that's why I was asking these questions.
THE COURT: Well, you're right on the line, Mr. White, as it relates to my order and the parameters of your permissible areas of inquiry.
I'll allow that question, but I think colorably you're getting into what I think may be a bias type of examination. And I'm going to sustain objections if it goes much farther. But I'll overrule that objection, I'll allow an answer.
Q So the answer -- the question was then that you sometimes write -- you write stories that are sometimes of interest to the editors after you ve had these meetings with the editors, correct?
A I wouldn't say that would be a correct characterization. I would just say that I call them, they tell me what they're interested in for the next day. Like I said, it's more an issue of how much space they have in the paper, what can wait a few days, what they would like for the story -- what stories they would like for the next day s paper.
Q Now, although yesterday you were asked a question that you haven't been in the courtroom here previously, but you ve been following this case in the papers?
A Yes.
Q Now, when you go to these meetings of the Dover School Board, in particular, I know you have other beats, but that's all I'm concerned about so when I talk about school board meetings I'm talking just about Dover.
A Okay.
Q You don't tape record the meetings, do you?
A I do not.
Q You don't video record the meetings, do you?
A No, I do not.
Q So when you go to these meetings, you're just taking handwritten notes of what's taking place, right?
A That's correct.
Q And you don't write down everything that was said at the meetings, do you, in these notes?
A No, not everything that's said.
Q Okay. You don't write down verbatim statements of everything that was said at the meetings either, do you?
A I try to as much as possible. That gives me the most accurate picture for writing later, but obviously I don't get down every single word.
Q In other words you sometimes have to summarize in your notes what's taking place at these meetings?
A I sometimes -- can you rephrase the question? I m not sure I understand what you're asking.
Q You said that you can't take down verbatim everything that's said in these meetings.
A Right.
Q So sometimes you have to summarize in your notes what's taking place.
A I wouldn't say I summarize. Sometimes the statements that I write down may not be complete statements but it's still a pretty specific reference to what was said or words that were used, that kind of thing, but I might not get every single word of a statement, particularly if it's a lengthy statement or if it's repetitious.
Q And you don't have any of the people who you re quoting in your notes verify the accuracy of the quotes you ve attributed to them in your notes, do you?
A That's correct. The only time I would follow up with someone is if I was confused by what they said, I didn't hear it correctly, if I wanted to verify to make sure I understood. But if it's something that is repeated numerous times or that I ve heard clearly, I don't feel any need to check for accuracy because I ve heard it.
Q And you still have your notes from the 2004 school board meetings, right?
A That's correct.
Q But the defendants have been prevented from seeing those notes, right?
A That's correct, by order of the Court.
Q Now, the Dover Area School Board meetings, they generally last a couple of hours?
A Yeah, two to three hours I would say.
Q Now, sometimes do you step out of the meetings to go to the bathroom?
A I usually try to only do that during breaks, sometimes they would take breaks, particularly if it was a lengthy meeting.
Q You sometimes go out of a meeting to conduct an interview with someone who had spoken during the meeting while the meeting is going on?
A Occasionally, but usually I try to do that after the meeting's been completed so that I'm not missing any of the business that's going on. Sometimes if someone has spoken, if it's a resident or someone, I might step away during a fairly benign, like if they're going through the hirings and firings and people who are taking leaves of absence, that kind of thing, I might step away to make sure I ve got someone's name and where they're from, that kind of thing.
Q So the answer to my question is sometimes you do step out of the meeting.
A Infrequently.
Q Now, during the school board meetings there are several topics that are usually discussed, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And many people speak at these school board meetings?
A Can you clarify what you mean by that?
Q Well, school board members are talking, people from the public are talking when it's their time to talk, correct?
A That's correct, it's primarily school board members, but sometimes there's a lot of residents depending on what's going on.
Q And when the school board members are speaking or the residents are speaking, they're not under oath or anything, are they?
A No.
Q And sometimes after meetings you go up to people and you speak to them as well, correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And these people aren't under oath either when you're talking to them?
A No, I don't ask them to take an oath.
Q Now, the articles you write about school board meetings, they don't describe everything that took place during those two to three hour meetings, do they?
A No.
Q And the articles you write about the school board meetings sometimes don't include all the statements that were made by people at those meetings either?
A That's correct, I'm not a court reporter.
Q The articles you write about school board meetings don't include all of the comments then that people made while the various topics were being discussed at the meetings, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And your articles also that you write, including the ones we talked about yesterday, or that I didn t, but you did with the plaintiff's attorney, those sometimes include statements made to you by people after the meetings have ended, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And these statements made to you are in response to your questions?
A Yes, usually.
Q The articles you write about school board meetings, they capture part then of what happened at these meetings?
A I would say that when you say part of what happened, for instance at a school board meeting you might have policy change come up, school budget be approved, et cetera. I treat each topic separately, and I try to be as comprehensive about the content of the discussion, the positions that were taken, within each subject area, but certainly it doesn't contain everything that happened at the meeting.
Q So then you're the person who then selects what part of the school board meeting you want to feature in your article.
A Yes, I have to use my judgment.
Q And you then also select which quotes from your notes that you want to include in your articles as well, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And you also are the one who decides what statements you want to summarize or paraphrase in your articles as well, correct?
A Right.
Q And the summaries and these statements that you re putting in the articles, this is again your interpretation of what you heard at these meetings?
A No, I wouldn't say it's interpretation. It s always, in essence, what they ve said. Like I said yesterday, paraphrasing is mostly a tool to allow you to be concise, and really to make sure that you're accurate. Someone might make a number of comments, and if you were to pick out any one quote, it would be taken out of context and it wouldn't really encompass their entire position. In that case paraphrasing is a really good tool because you can encompass the position that was taken throughout the entire meeting through comments they made, dialogues they had, and questions they answered from residents.
Q But that's your paraphrasing, right?
A That's right.
Q Now, so then in your articles then you re attributing statements of people that are in response to your questions, right?
A Excuse me, could you repeat that?
Q You're attributing statements to people that are in response to your questions?
A Sometimes it's in response to my questions and sometimes it's just what they ve said.
Q So sometimes you can ask a question, and if it's a yes or no question, the answer or the statement in the article wouldn't just say yes, it would be an affirmance of your question?
A Do you have a specific -- that's difficult to say. Most of the time when I ask people questions, it's not just a yes or no answer. And usually when I ask a question I try to create the context within the article to say, you know, in response to or kind of like a lead in to it so that the reader knows what the issue is.
Q That's the -- that's based on your writing style and how you're trying to make an article flow?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Now, after you write an article, you don't have the person you quoted in the article verify the accuracy of the quote, do you?
A No, not unless I have any question about it, but no.
Q And after you write an article, you don't have the person you quote in the article verify the accuracy of the context in which you ve placed that quote, do you?
A No, that's correct.
Q And after the article is written, you don't have the person whose statements you ve paraphrased or summarized verify the accuracy of that paraphrasing?
A No, again, it comes directly from the meeting, so I don't feel I need to.
Q After you write an article you don't have the person whose statements you summarized or paraphrased verify the context in which you ve used that paraphrased statement, right?
A No.
Q So these articles you're writing, again, they are filtered through you, your perceptions of what's happening at the meeting, correct? As you said, you're not a court reporter.
A Sure, in a sense they -- in a sense you can say that. I mean what -- I'm reporting on what happens, though, and what the conversation is.
Q But as any reporter, you're reporting it from your own perspective, correct?
A Sure.
Q Now, after you write an article you submit it to editors for your paper.
A Yes.
Q And you don't necessarily know which editor is going to edit the paper, correct?
A No, I don't know.
Q You e-mail it to a group of editors and whoever is on the staff or on call that night, whatever is the correct term, is the one who reviews the article, right?
A Right.
Q Now, the editor who edits your paper, that person wasn't at the school board meeting, was he?
A No.
Q And editors can make changes to your articles, correct?
A In my experience they make very few changes. Sometimes, as we looked at in the June 8 article, they might add something to create context. If they -- they very -- I ve never had an experience of them editing content.
If they ever have a question, maybe I wrote a sentence that was awkward or confusing, they'd call me the next morning and say, hey, this is confusing or too long, how can we say it better, and we work on it together so that I make sure that the content is -- accurately reflects what I heard and what I saw at the meeting the day before.
Q Now, maybe I misunderstood you, but at the start of your testimony yesterday, and I don't have a copy of your transcript, but I thought you had said that editors don t add anything to your articles?
A No, they don't add anything content wise. Like I said, there are instances -- and let me be more specific about it, maybe I wasn't articulating myself well. Things that I ve actually written, they're not adding to or changing without my knowledge and without basically they call me up and say, hey, this is awkward and long and, again, it usually has nothing to do with content. Occasionally they'll call and say, hey, you forgot the date, or are you sure this is the right spelling. It's usually that kind of thing.
Occasionally it's more of a stylistic issue, but I might write a sentence that is long or awkward, and they might say, hey, what's a shorter way we can say this, this is too long. It would be something of that nature, but I think I was accurate in saying that they don't change the content of what I wrote.
Q So the editor expects you to have the content correctly, correct?
A That's right.
Q Now, based upon the content of your article, then the editor writes the title for the article.
A Right.
Q And then the editor also, based upon how you ve described what occurred, writes the subtitles?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And then based upon the content of the article, how you wrote it, for example on exhibit 804, the article we talked about yesterday, an editor would then add the paragraph about the Supreme Court decision, and then interview over the phone the ACLU attorney, correct?
A Yes, they chose to do that.
Q Now, exhibit 804, do you have that handy?
A I do.
Q That's the article that deals with the June 7 , 2004 school board meeting?
A That's correct.
Q Now, according to the article, the debate was over a textbook that involved the subject of creationism, right?
A No, that's not exactly correct. It was a debate over a biology text that contained evolution, and creationism was brought up at the meeting.
Q Creationism was brought up as something that was missing then, according to you, from this biology textbook.
A I'm sorry, are you looking at a particular statement?
Q I'm looking at the -- right now I'm looking at the title where it says, "Dover Debates Evolution and Biology TextBook; book on hold because it doesn't address creationism."
A I didn't write that, but based on the content of the article, they were looking for something else to balance evolution, and creationism was the thing that was mentioned at the meeting.
Q Now, this -- this debate dealing with the textbook on June 7 , that lasted a while, didn't it?
A Yes, it did.
Q And several people spoke about the subject, according to your article?
A Yes.
Q And also according to your article, school board members spoken about the article?
A Spoken about the article or --
Q Excuse me, spoke about the subject of the textbook?
A Yes.
Q And also according to your article, school officials such as Mr. Nilsen and Baksa also spoke on the subject?
A That's correct.
Q And as well, did people in the public speak about it?
A That's correct.
Q Now, in the first page, column three, that's the quote from Paula Knudsen, I believe you pronounce her name, that the editor added to your article?
A That's correct.
Q And that was an interview the editor had with a Paula Knudsen?
A Yes.
Q And in that section of this article, in quotes, is a statement from her where the word creationism is quoted, right; second paragraph on the third column?
A Yes.
Q And the editor had conducted the interview with her, Paula Knudsen, after receiving your draft article, right?
A That's correct.
Q And --
A That's my understanding.
Q Now, on the second page of your article, you have a quote at the top from resident Max Pell, who was at the school board meeting, right?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And quoted in that statement you have the word creationism, right?
A Yes.
Q Okay.
A That's the word he used.
Q And that's how you wrote the statement down in your notes?
A Yes.
Q Now, the quotes dealing with -- and you can review the article -- the quotes dealing with Knudsen and Pell, those are the only two quotes in the article that include the word creationism, am I right?
A Let me review that.
Q Sure.
A Yeah, I believe those are the only direct quotes.
Q And you include a statement in quotes when you re sure about the accuracy of the quotes, right?
A No, that wouldn't be accurate to say. I include quotation marks when I'm sure that I ve gotten it down verbatim. But whether or not I'm attributing it to them with paraphrasing or through a direct quote, I'm sure about the accuracy.
Q Well, my question is then, when something is in quotation marks in your article, you're sure about the accuracy of that statement?
A Yes.
Q Word for word?
A Yes.
Q There's not a word missing or anything like that, right?
A Right.
Q Okay. And then if the statement isn't quoted then it's a summary of what went on at the meeting, right?
A It's based on the content of the conversation.
Q Now, also on page two of this article, you interviewed after the meeting then Bill Buckingham and Mike Baksa --
A That's correct.
Q -- correct? And on page one of the article, you have quotes -- in quotation marks from Bill Buckingham and Noll Weinrich in the first column?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And those are statements dealing with evolution that they had made at the June 7, 2004 meeting?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q So having reviewed the article now, just now, exhibit 804, the only time the term creationism is attributed to a school board member or a school official is only in a summary statement that you ve made, right?
A Yes, that's correct, based on the content of the discussion.
Q Again, it's not in quotes, it's a summary, right?
A It's what was said at the meeting, but it's a summary of what was said at the meeting.
Q So nowhere in the article do you have quoted a statement from a school board member where the word creationism is used in quotation marks.
A Right, not a direct quote.
Q And nowhere in the article do you have quoted a statement from a school official where the word creationism is used in that quote, correct?
A Right, not a direct quote, but it --
Q And this is true even though one of the big subjects of discussion at this meeting was the use of the term creationism, right?
A That's correct.
Q Okay. And now, you didn't verify the accuracy of any quotes with the people you quoted in this article, correct, after you -- or before you drafted the article?
A I didn't need to. I heard them say the things they said.
Q Did you -- I didn't get the answer.
A Oh, okay, I'm sorry. I said I didn't need to, I heard the things that I wrote.
Q And you didn't verify the accuracy of any statement, whether it's quoted or not, with the person to whom you attributed the statement to, correct?
A I'm sorry, can you rephrase that?
Q You didn't verify the accuracy of any statement, whether it was quoted or not in your article, in quotation marks, with the person to whom you attributed that statement, correct?
A Right.
Q Okay. Nor did you verify the accuracy of the context in which you placed the statement with the person who you say made the statement, correct?
A I didn't need to because I heard it.
Q I just asked you a yes or no; you didn't verify context with people, did you?
A No, I didn't need to.
Q If you can turn to the next exhibit, please, it was 805. This is a follow-up article to the June 7 , 2004 school meeting?
A That's correct.
Q And since it's a follow-up article, is this something that the editors would have asked you to do?
A Yes, they did.
Q Now, the point of this article is a possible lawsuit over a textbook that teaches both evolution and creationism, is that correct, as stated in the first column?
A Yes.
Q And the article, since it's June 7 , the date it's -- or excuse me, June 9 , the date it's published, this article is based on notes that you took from the June 7 , 2004 meeting?
A It's based on both notes from the June 7 meeting and then also a few interviews that I conducted on June 8 .
Q The day after the meeting?
A That's correct.
Q And in your article, page one, column one and two, you have quotes and summaries from statements made by Robert Boston of Americans United, the separation of church and state?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And in his quote you attribute to him at the top of the second column on page one, in the quote is the word creationism, correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And you conducted this interview with Mr. Boston over the telephone?
A Yes.
Q And he wasn't at the June 7 school board meeting?
A No, he wasn t.
Q So Mr. Boston is responding to questions you re posing to him during the interview?
A Right, that's correct.
Q In your article you referred to, on page one, Bill Buckingham and Noll Weinrich, correct?
A Yes.
Q But you don't have anything in direct quotes from those people in this article.
A No, I'm paraphrasing.
Q And also in your article on page two, column one, you have a quote attributed to Michael Baksa talking about the origins of life, right?
A That's correct.
Q And that was in an interview you conducted with him on the 8 of June.
A Yes, that's right, over the phone.
Q And also on page two, column two, you have references to Casey Brown, Sheila Harkins and Rich Nilsen, as well, correct?
A I know I do Casey Brown. Oh yes, I do, and Richard Nilsen.
Q And those, again, were interviews conducted after the school board meeting of June 7 ?
A That's correct.
Q And again in this article, and you can review it, nowhere in the article do you have a quote attributed to any school board member where the word creationism is used in the quote, correct?
A That's correct, in this article.
Q And that same holds true with regard to any quotes you have attributed to school officials.
A Just a moment.
I believe Mr. Baksa -- I'm looking at the second page in the first column -- we discussed briefly what would happen if creationism --
Q I didn't ask you that question. I asked you do you have in this article any quotes, direct quotes that you attribute to a school official where the word creationism is in quotes?
A I'm sorry, no, no direct quotes.
Q And that's true even though the focus of the article dealt with the subject of creationism in a textbook, right?
A Right, that's correct, it was --
Q All right, and --
A -- it was coming from the meeting on the 7 .
Q And --
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, objection, she's trying to answer the question. This is the third time she's being cut off.
MR. WHITE: Your Honor, I'm asking her direct questions for yes or no answers. She's editorializing. If Mr. --
THE COURT: I don't find it to be necessarily editorializing. I think you are stepping on her answers. I'll throw the flag if I think she's editorializing. Let her finish her answers.
MR. WHITE: Okay.
Q In reviewing this article then, the only time the word creationism is in a quote is then with regard to Mr. Boston of Americans United, in response to a question you posed to him during your interview?
A That's correct.
Q And the only other times creationism is mentioned in this article is part of your summaries or your paraphrasing of what took place at the June 7 meeting according to you?
A Right, from the discussion on June 7 .
Q And also you didn't verify the accuracy of any of these summaries with the people who you attribute these statements to, did you?
A No.
Q Nor did you verify the accuracy of any context of these statements with these people within the article?
A No.
Q Can you turn to exhibit 806, please.
Now, according to the title, and I understand you don't write the title, but at least the subtitle it says, "Creationism Draws 100 People to Dover Meeting." That would have been written by the editor of the newspaper, correct?
A That's correct.
Q How many years have you been covering school board meetings at Dover?
A Four years.
Q Four years. Have other times there been -- have there been other times where a hundred or so people show up for a meeting?
A On a few occasions.
Q One of those would have been about the firing of a football coach; do you recall that one?
A Yes.
Q So occasionally people show up in numbers to school board meetings, correct?
A Yes, that's true.
Q Now, the debate on June 14 , again, this is your article, exhibit 806, is dealing with the June 14 meeting, right?
A That's correct.
Q And the debate that went on at this meeting lasted for a while, is that right?
A Yes, I believe it was about an hour, hour and a half.
Q And several people spoke on the subjects, especially, as you say, of creationism, according to your article?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q That would be the focus of this meeting, according to your article, correct?
A The focus of the meeting is on creationism and on the textbook; that would be the focus of the article.
Q If you can review this article, 806, point to any place where you have the word creationism included in a direct quote, not a paraphrasing but a direct quote, that you can attribute to a school board member or to a school official.
A I don't believe I do have -- I don't believe I do have one.
Q So nowhere in the article is there a direct quote attributed to a school official where the word creationism is used?
A No, I certainly have paraphrased sentences because it was repeated throughout the discussion but . . .
Q But even though the subject of the meeting, which went on for an hour and a half, dealt with creationism, you didn't have any occasion to include a verbatim quote from a school official or school board member where the use of the word creationism occurred?
A That's correct.
Q Now, column two, on page two, you were -- which was referred to yesterday, you have a quote from Bill Buckingham, "Nearly 2,000 years (sic) someone died on a cross for us, shouldn't we have the courage to stand up for him?" Now, according to you, Bill Buckingham made that statement at the June 14 , 2004 meeting.
A Yes, he did.
Q Did he make that statement only once during the June 14 , 2004 meeting?
A Yes, only once.
Q And you ve been covering the school board for, you say, four years?
A Yes.
Q Do you remember him ever saying that statement previously?
A No.
Q Now, since you have the statement in the second column of page two in quotes, then you're positive of the accuracy word for word of that statement, correct?
A Yes.
Q Okay. So if that statement is quoted any differently, that would be inaccurate, correct?
A I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your question.
Q If this statement you attribute to Bill Buckingham is quoted differently, that would be inaccurate?
A I can't speak to that, but that's what I heard.
Q But you said that whenever you have something quoted word for word, you're positive that's how it was said, right?
A That's what I have written down in my notes, and whenever I quote something verbatim I have it in its entirety in my notes.
Q So my question then is, if it's stated differently, that would be not an accurate quote, right?
MR. BENN: Your Honor, I think she's already indicated that what she's written is what she's heard. She can't testify in terms as to what somebody else has heard.
MR. WHITE: But she can testify if something differs from her statement.
THE COURT: I think it was asked and answered, so I'll sustain the objection on that basis.
Q And you didn't verify the accuracy of any quotes with the people who you quoted in this article?
A Again, no, I heard them and didn't have any confusion.
Q Did you verify with them about the accuracy of the context in which it's quoted?
A No.
Q Now, the next article, 807 -- well, one question. At these meetings then, you're in attendance and other people are in the attendance, right?
A That's correct.
Q And the people who are in attendance, especially the ones you quote in the article, they're residents of Dover as far as you know, right?
A Yes.
Q They're people who are available, aren't they?
A Excuse me?
Q Available in the sense you can call them up the next day if you wanted to and double-check a statement they made?
A Yes.
Q So these are not people who are just flying in from another country for these meetings, right?
A To my knowledge.
Q So they're people who are in the area.
A To my knowledge, again, I don't poll everyone that's there, but they have to sign in and put their address at the front of the meeting.
Q So if someone had to find those people, if they ve signed in the book as far as your knowledge and what you ve seen at these meetings, you could track them down?
A I believe so.
Q Now, article 807 -- excuse me, exhibit 807, that s an article dealing with the August 2 , 2004 school meeting, right?
A Yes.
Q And that's a school meeting that, according to the title, deals with, A Minority Also Wants Book on, quote, Intelligent Design, end quote.
A Yes.
Q Okay. So this is talking about a book dealing with intelligent design at this meeting, right?
A Yes, and the Biology text was the primary part of the article.
Q The Biology text, the Prentice Hall Biology book?
A Right, the vote taken to approve that.
Q Now, intelligent design had been mentioned at previous school board meetings, hadn't it?
A I had never heard it mentioned before this meeting.
Q So the first time you ever heard it was at the August 2 , 2004 meeting?
A That's correct.
Q And in this article, exhibit 807, you quote the term intelligent design a few times, right?
A Yes.
Q Okay. And again, although you mention a few times in the article as well the term creationism, you don't have any -- you don't have that word in any quote, a direct quote that you can attribute to any school board member or school official, right?
A No, it's in reference to the ongoing debate about the book and creationism was what had been talked about in the previous meetings, creating a context.
Q But now at this particular meeting the conversation is about intelligent design?
A That's correct.
Q So you are adding the term creationism to this article, correct?
A Again, it's creating a context for what had gone before. And also at this meeting it wasn't clear that they had abandoned creationism. It was just that they were introducing intelligent design.
Q Now, in the article, column one, page one, you have comments by Bill Buckingham about the approval of the book Biology, in conjunction with a companion text Of Pandas and People, that that teaches intelligent design. So Bill Buckingham at this particular meeting would have said Of Pandas and People teaches intelligent design?
A Yes.
Q Bill Buckingham didn't say at this particular meeting that Of Pandas and People teaches creationism, did he?
A No, he didn t.
Q And according to your article, column one, page one, Of Pandas and People is a book published by Foundation for Thought and Ethics, and questions the science behind Darwin's theory of evolution, is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Now, that's something you had conducted your own research on or was that discussed at the meeting?
A No, I conducted my own research on that.
Q But at the August 2 meeting then, as far as what was being discussed then, it was the book Biology, Prentice Hall, and then the companion book Of Pandas and People, which teaches intelligent design, right?
A That's correct.
Q Now, the next article that you can look at is 808. Now, this article I believe you said yesterday was written at the same time you wrote exhibit 807, right?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And this article, again, you didn't write the title of it, is that right?
A Right.
Q So you didn't write, "Michigan Law Center Offers a Defense of Creationism."
A No, I didn t.
Q That would have been the editor writing it based upon whatever he or she viewed was the point of your article, correct?
A I guess, yes.
Q And in this article, again you point to a previous conversation you had with Robert Boston of American United?
A That's correct.
Q And about a threatened lawsuit from American United, is that right?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And that threatened lawsuit from American United was if a -- the school had adopted a textbook that taught both creationism and evolution, is that right?
A Right, that's what that quote was in reference to.
Q But the textbook that had been adopted on August 2 was the Prentice Hall Biology book, right?
A That's right.
Q And also in the article it talks about Bill Buckingham mentioning that the Thomas More Center would offer legal -- free legal assistance to the school district, right?
A Yes.
Q Did he make those comments at the August 2 meeting?
A Yes, he did. Let me clarify, he made reference to a law firm offering service, but didn't go into detail. So I did go up and question him. So he didn't use the name Thomas More or go into very much detail during the meeting. I questioned him after the meeting.
Q And it was after the meeting that he gave you a copy of a letter from the Thomas More Law Center to him and the district?
A That's correct.
Q And you were able to keep that letter?
A Yes.
Q And quoted in your article is from that letter, so I would take it you had picked the most relevant part of the letter, am I right on that?
A Yes.
Q And that quote says, from the Thomas More Law Center letter, "A textbook adopted by the school board that presents an alternative theory to evolution does not violate the constitution as long as the alternative theory is appropriately presented." Correct?
A Yes.
Q And that quote doesn't mention teaching of creationism, does it?
A No.
Q And also the article says that, in column two, that Buckingham had said to you -- I take it this would have been after the meeting?
A Yes.
Q That the Thomas More Law Center had referred to him or had recommended to him the book Of Pandas and People?
A Yes.
Q And Of Pandas and People is the book that Buckingham had mentioned on August 2 that teaches intelligent design?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q But -- and that's the same meeting where he never said Of Pandas and People teaches creationism, right?
A No, he never said Of Pandas and People teaches creationism.
Q Now, if you can look at the next article, exhibit 809. So now this is dealing with the September 6 , 2004 meeting, correct?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q And again the title of this article, that's done by the editor?
A That's correct.
Q And have you ever -- when you submit your draft articles, do you put a title on the article?
A I don t.
Q And the purpose of a title is to, what, catch the attention of the reader, right?
A Yes.
Q Now, in the first paragraph of this article you say that the school board is considering purchase of a companion textbook to teach creationism as part of the curriculum. That's your statement, right?
A Right.
Q Now, the book they're talking about though, at this particular time, since they ve already adopted the Biology book from Prentice Hall, is Of Pandas and People.
A That's correct.
Q And Of Pandas and People had been referred to at the meetings as a book on intelligent design, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And you had done some research on the book to find out the background of the book, correct?
A Yeah, just limited research at that time.
Q And what you found out from your limited research according to your article is that Foundation for Thought and Ethics had prepared the book, and it just questions the science behind the theory of evolution, correct?
A That's correct.
Q And there's nothing to indicate from what your research data and what was mentioned at these meetings, that the book Of Pandas and People is a creationism book, right?
A That's true.
Q Okay. Now, in the second -- second column of exhibit 809, you have a paraphrasing of comments by Bill Buckingham and his attempt to distinguish creationism and intelligent design.
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Were those comments made at the September 6 meeting?
A That was made after the meeting.
Q In response to questions by you?
A No, he came up to me.
Q He came up to you?
A Yes.
Q And was anyone else around when --
A There were other people around, they might have heard the conversation, but it was between the two of us.
Q And did you verify with Mr. Buckingham the accuracy of your paraphrasing?
A Again, I didn't need to, I heard it. I wasn t confused about what he said.
Q Now, the next article -- again, this was after the meeting you say when he made these comments to you?
A Yes.
Q Him coming up to you and talking to you.
A Yes.
Q So people sometimes talk to you even though you re a reporter, people -- people are friendly to you?
A Sometimes they are, sometimes they're not.
Q Well, that is true with everybody.
The next article, exhibit 80 -- excuse me, 813.
One thing, one thing though. If you can go back to 809, please.
A Yes.
Q I'm sorry.
The third column, one, two, three, four, five paragraphs down, you have, and I apologize if I can t pronounce this correctly, Irene Kavala Austine?
A Austin.
Q Okay, Austin, sorry.
A Yeah.
Q Was she at the September 6 meeting?
A Yes, she was.
Q And the comments that you have summarized here about the teaching of evolution has never caused her to see someone lose their faith in God; were those comments that she had made during the public comment portion of the meeting?
A Yes, that's correct.
Q Did you walk up to her afterwards and ask her any further questions about those statements?
A No, I believe I went up to her afterwards. She had said her name, but I didn't get the spelling of it correctly, so I did go up to her, get the spelling of her name, and she -- I asked her, you know -- she had made reference to being a teacher, so I asked her for a little bit more detail on that.
Q But these were just her own just comments, not based upon any, like, scientific study she had done or anything like that, right?
A I can't speak to that.
Q Exhibit 813. This is the October 18 , 2004 meeting?
A The -- yes, the article comes from that. But again, I wasn't in attendance.
Q Okay. Well, that was my question to you. You weren't there that day.
A That's right.
Q So this article is a follow-up article the editors had asked you to do?
A That's correct.
Q So you're writing this article based upon interviews you had conducted the day after the October 18 meeting?
A That's correct.
Q So the article is not based upon any firsthand observations you had made during the school board meeting?
A Right, not during the meeting, just during my interviews.
Q So the article is just based on secondhand information?
A It's based on firsthand information from the people that I interviewed.
Q Who told you what happened at the meeting?
A That's correct, and their positions.
Q And as your normal practice is, any of the statements that you quote people in or that you paraphrase people in this article, you never verify with them the accuracy of these statements?
A Not unless I need to.
Q Or the context or anything like that.
The next article is, I believe it would be 817, is that right?
A I might be missing one. I ve got up to 813.
Q I may have it misnumbered.
It could be 814. 810, I'm sorry.
A 810? Okay, I ve got it.
Q There was a question yesterday about the quote you have from Mr. Weinrich there with the eclipses or ellipses.
A Yes.
Q When he was talking, and what you quoted here, this was based upon a two to five minute speech he was giving?
A Yes.
Q Okay. So out of that two to five minutes of speaking you were able to condense it to, in effect, two sentences?
A I wouldn't say I condensed it. I would say that I picked out this quote as capturing the essence of what he was saying during that two to five minute speech.
Q But you chose what to include as far as his statements for your article, right?
A This seemed to be the most representative of his position, yes.
Q Just based upon your -- what you find to be the appropriate thing to put in the article, right?
A Yeah, based on what he said.
Q Now, during the school board meetings, school board members had commented about inaccuracies in reporting, isn t that true?
A Yes, starting mostly in November.
Q You don't remember anything back in June of comments being made?
A I don't remember a comment being made, no.
Q And school board members have come up to you personally and commented about inaccurate statements in your articles?
A No, not specifically. I ve had two off-the-record conversations with Dr. Nilsen and with Mr. Bonsell, but they asked for those to be off the record, so I wouldn't speak to that. And then the only other instance would be Bill Buckingham coming up to me, and I included that in the article, in reference to when he said you have to distinguish between -- in the September whatever that article is, September 9th, I think, 3rd.
MR. WHITE: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: All right. Any redirect?
MR. WALCZAK: Just a couple, Your Honor.
Q Good morning.
Mr. White asked you several times whether you verify the accuracy of your quotes or the context of the quotes after you write them down. And then I think you responded to all of those questions that you don t. Why not?
A Again, because I ve heard them, they're in my notes, I remember them saying them, I'm writing the articles almost -- in most cases, specifically talking about these articles, right after the meeting. The only time I would verify is if I didn't understand what was said, if I didn t hear it correctly, if there was some confusion. Otherwise I just assume that people can read the articles and go through the proper channels if they felt like something was inaccurate.
Q And Mr. White asked you about the quote that you attributed to Mr. Buckingham about "2,000 years ago someone died on the cross." And he asked you if you had ever -- if he made that quote just once, and I think you answered that he did.
A Yes.
Q So he made that quote just once in June?
A That's correct, in June.
Q And I believe you testified yesterday that you ve been covering the school board meetings, Dover Area School Board meetings for about four years?
A That's correct.
Q And have you heard Mr. Buckingham make that same comment "2,000 years ago someone died on the cross" before June 2004?
A No.
MR. WALCZAK: I have no further questions.
THE COURT: Any recross?
MR. WHITE: No.
THE COURT: All right, ma am, thank you. You may step down. That completes your testimony.
MR. BENN: Is she excused, Your Honor? May she leave?
THE COURT: No need to recall her in my opinion. You're excused.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, plaintiffs call Joseph Maldonado. He's been sequestered.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, I would propose that we discuss the exhibits after we ve completed Mr. Maldonado s testimony, since I think it's going to be the same fight.
THE COURT: Yeah, I just came to the same conclusion. I think rather than interrupt the reporter s testimony, we'll hold it, keep moving, and we'll hold that until later.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, it was also suggested to me that there is some overlap with the articles testified to -- about the articles testified to by Mr. Stough, which we have not resolved yet. And it might be an appropriate time to include those articles in the discussion that we have about these.
THE COURT: All right.
JOSEPH SCOTT MALDONADO, called as a witness on behalf of the plaintiffs, having been duly sworn or affirmed according to law, testified as follows:
THE DEPUTY CLERK: State your name and spell your name for the record, please.
THE WITNESS: My name is Joseph Scott Maldonado. Joseph is J-O-S-E-P-H, Scott is S-C-O-T-T, Maldonado is M-A-L-D-O-N-A-D-O.
Q Good morning, Mr. Maldonado.
A Good morning.
Q You are a part-time freelance writer for the York Daily Record?
A That is correct.
Q And you have not attended any of the trial prior to stepping into this courtroom a few minutes ago?
A We had stepped in momentarily, and then we were informed to leave, so we were here about two minutes or so.
Q So you have not sat through any of the testimony?
A No, sir.
Q Prior to becoming a freelance writer, you were in the military?
A I was in the United States Air Force from 1987 to 1994.
Q And what do you do now?
A I am a freelance writer for the York Daily Record, and I also own a small sandwich shop in York, Pennsylvania, called PBJs in the Central Market House.
Q You don't write for any other newspapers?
A No, I do not.
Q And you ve been a freelance writer for the York Daily Record for four years?
A It will be four years in January.
Q And one of your steady assignments is the Dover Area School Board?
A It had been up until August of 2005.
Q And so between late 2003 and until August 2005, that was what we might term your steady beat?
A Yes, sir.
Q And during that time did you cover most of the meetings of the Dover board?
A That is correct.
Q And when I say the Dover board, you didn't cover committee meetings?
A No.
Q So these would be the board meetings that are held open to the public?
A That is correct.
Q And in 2004, do you recall whether you attended all of the Dover Area School Board meetings?
A I covered a large majority of them. I cannot remember if I made every single one, but an overwhelming majority of them, yes.
Q I want to ask you some general questions that will apply to all of the articles that you wrote between June of 2004 and November of 2004. When you attend these meetings you sit in the front row?
A I usually sit somewhere near the front, yes.
Q And why do you do that?
A So that I have a clear line of sight of the board and the best opportunity to hear what's being said.
Q And on the articles that were discussed in your deposition, which are going to be the same ones we talk about today, there are titles and subtitles on those articles?
A Yes, there are.
Q Do you write those?
A No, I do not.
Q Who writes those?
A Whoever the editor is, I guess, that's reviewing the story.
Q But the rest of the text in there is your work product?
A That is correct.
Q When you go to these meetings do you take notes?
A Yes, I do.
Q How do you take those notes?
A They are written notes.
Q Is it your practice to take accurate notes?
A Yes, it is.
Q And do you take quotes down in a certain way in your notes?
A Yes, I do.
Q How do you do that?
A I write them down verbatim.
Q And do you put little quote marks around them in your notes?
A Yes, I do.
Q And when you go to write your articles, do you rely on your notes?
A Yes, I do.
Q What do you do, you compare your notes or you read your notes and then you write your article?
A Umm, yes.
Q The York Daily Record is a morning paper?
A That is correct.
Q And the Dover Area School Board meetings occur in the evening?
A That is correct.
Q And do they usually end about the same time?
A Typically between eight and ten.
Q So when do you write the articles?
A It depends on the -- it depends on what news comes out of the meeting. For the most part I usually write them the next day for Wednesday's paper, but sometimes I will write them that night.
Q So if you or the editors think there is something particularly noteworthy, they want to get it in the paper the next day?
A Yes.
Q So you would have to write it immediately after the board meeting?
A That is correct.
Q Now, the York Daily Record is separate from the York Dispatch?
A Yes, it is.
Q It's a different newspaper?
A Yes.
Q Do you know Heidi Bernard-Bubb?
A I know that she is the correspondent from the York Dispatch.
Q And does she regularly cover the same Dover board meetings you cover?
A Yes.
Q Do you see her there?
A Yes, I do.
Q Have you ever worked on an article together with her?
A No, sir.
Q Have you ever discussed an article with her?
A No.
Q Have you ever talked about what happened before you write the article?
A I'm sorry, can you say that again?
Q Have you ever discussed with her what you might have seen before you sit down to write an article?
A I think we ve talked about meetings in general, but not for the sake of writing articles.
Q Now, we're going to discuss eight articles that you wrote between June and December of 2004. And I just -- I want -- it's the same articles that you were asked about by Mr. White at your deposition a couple of weeks ago.
Do you sit here today under oath and say that the articles you wrote accurately depict what happened at Dover School Board meetings?
A Yes, I do, however I would like to note that these are Heidi's articles, not mine, that are up here.
Q And do you testify today that the quotes you attributed to the people are accurate to the best of your knowledge based upon what you heard them say?
A Yes.
Q And that when you wrote in your articles that somebody said something, and even though it's not in quotes, that your characterization was to the best of your ability true and accurate?
A Those words are paraphrased from things that the subject said.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, may I approach?
THE COURT: You may.
Q Mr. Maldonado, I show you what's been marked as plaintiff's exhibit 790. Do you recognize this?
A Yes, I do.
Q And is this an article you wrote reporting on the June 7, 2004, Dover School Board meeting?
A Yes, it is.
MR. WALCZAK: Matt, if you could highlight the second column there.
Q In that second column, it says, "Board member William Buckingham, who sits on the curriculum committee, said a book had been under consideration, but was declined because of its one-sided references to evolution."
A Yes.
Q And then there is a quote attributed to him, "It s inexcusable to teach from a book that says man descended from apes and monkeys. He said we want to book that gives balance to education."
A Yes, you did.
Q Is that an exact quote of what you heard Mr. Buckingham say that evening?
A Yes, sir.
Q Now, in that next paragraph it says, "Buckingham and other board members are looking for a book that teaches creationism and evolution."
Now, there's no quotes in that paragraph, is that correct?
A That is correct.
Q You used the term, "looking for a book that teaches creationism and evolution." Are those words that you heard Buckingham and other board members say?
A That is correct.
Q So you heard Bill Buckingham use the word creationism at that June 7 meeting?
A Yes, sir.
Q And it says, "Buckingham and other board members." What other board members do you recall using the word creationism?
A May I have a moment to review the article?
Q Please.
A In the paragraph that follows, it says, "Board president Allen Bonsell disagreed, saying there were only two theories, creationism and evolution."
Once the word creationism was introduced into this discussion, it was a word that all the board members would have used during the course of that discussion.
Q So this wasn't a meeting where the word creationism was used just once?
A No, this was an ongoing discussion.
Q And there were people who spoke at the meeting during the public comment section, correct?
A That is correct.
Q And some of those people used the word creationism?
A That is correct.
Q But I just want to be clear, you distinctly remember Dover Area School Board members at that June meeting using the term creationism?
A Yes, sir.
Q There's a quote down at the bottom of the -- starting at the bottom of the third column, attributed to Mr. Buckingham. Quote, Have you ever heard of brainwashing. If students are taught only evolution, it stops becoming theory and becomes fact.
A Yes.
Q And is that exactly what you heard Mr. Buckingham say that evening?
A Yes.
Q And he's responding to something that somebody had said during the public comment period.
A He was responding to Mr. Max Pell, a former student.
Q Now, in that first full paragraph on the first -- I'm sorry, on the fourth column, it says, "After the meeting Buckingham said." Do you remember when and where that conversation with Mr. Buckingham took place?
A That would have took place near his seat on the board as the meeting ended.
Q And did you approach him to ask a question?
A Yes, I did.
Q Is that unusual?
A No.
Q So you often speak with board members after the meeting?
A Yes.
Q And it -- the paragraph reads, "After the meeting Buckingham said all he wants is a book that offers balance between what he said are Christian views of creationism and evolution."
Now, again there's no quotes in that paragraph. Why is that?
A It's based on a quote that's in the next paragraph. "This country was founded on Christianity and our students should be taught as such."
Q And let's look at that next paragraph. It said, "He said there needn't be consideration of the beliefs of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims or other faiths and views."
Now, is that something he said or was that a question you posed to him?
A That was a question that was posed to him that made mention of Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims or people of other faiths.
Q So --
A It was phrased that way to him.
Q And who phrased that question?
A I did.
Q That was your question?
A Yes, sir.
Q So you would have asked him, something like -- do you remember what question you asked him?
A I probably would have said something, Do you believe -- do you believe that the people of other faiths in your district, Buddhists, Muslims, people of other faiths, that they need to be considered in this matter?
Q And then you have a quote attributed to him, "This country wasn't founded on Muslim beliefs or evolution. This country was founded on Christianity and our students should be taught as such." And that's in quotes, so is that verbatim what he said?
A Yes, sir.
Q Would you have been taking notes during that time?
A Yes, sir.
Q And so he's answering and you're -- you were writing down?
A Yes, sir.
Q And you were trying to be as accurate as you could?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WHITE: Objection, leading.
THE COURT: Why don't you rephrase. I'll sustain the objection.
THE WITNESS: I was trying to be accurate, yes.
Q In that last paragraph in plaintiff's exhibit 790, there is a reference to Assistant Superintendent Michael Baksa. Did you speak with him the next day?
A That is correct, on Tuesday.
Q So you contacted him?
A Yes.
Q And at the bottom of that paragraph it says -- attributes to him saying, "Teachers, administrators, curriculum committee members will work together to find a book that is agreeable to all."
A Yes, sir.
Q Do you know whether any of that could be in quotes?
A I don't remember, sir.
Q But that is an accurate summary of what he said to you?
A That would have been an accurate paraphrase of what was said to me.
MR. WALCZAK: May I approach, Your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
Q Show you what's been marked as plaintiff's exhibit 791. Do you recognize this?
A Yes, I do.
Q Is this an article you wrote that was published on June the 10th?
A Yes, sir. Well, it wasn't written on June the 10th , it probably would have been written on June the 9t, or somewhere in that area.
Q It ran in the York Daily Record on June the 10 ?
A Yes.
Q And what is this piece in relation to the -- this isn't reporting on a school board meeting?
A It's to get reaction to an issue. We do that frequently after different government meetings, school board meetings, to find out what the person on the street is feeling about certain issues.
Q And is it fair to characterize this as man on the street interviews to gauge people's reactions?
A Yes, sir.
Q And were you the one going out and interviewing people in the community?
A Yes, I was.
Q Direct your attention to the bottom of the first column at the top, it says, "During this past Monday night s board meeting" -- and then going over to the second column, you say, "During this past Monday night's board meeting," that would have been the June 7 board meeting?
A That is correct.
Q It said, "Board members, Alan Bonsell, Noll Weinrich and Buckingham spoke aggressively in favor of having a biology book that includes the theories of creation as part of the text."
Now, you mention three board members who spoke, quote, aggressively in favor of having a biology book that includes the theories of creation as part of the text. So you remember those three individuals talking about having an evolution book that -- or biology book that includes discussion of creationism?
A Yes.
Q And then you have a quote in the next paragraph attributed to Bill Buckingham, All I'm asking for is balance, end quote. Is that something you recall Bill Buckingham saying directly?
A Yes.
Q And then in that next paragraph you have written, "Asked if he thought this might violate the separation of church and state, Buckingham called the law" -- and then you have in quotes, "a myth." So, again, that's a quote of what Mr. Buckingham said?
A Yes.
Q And he was talking about the separation of church and state?
A Yes.
Q Now, at the bottom of the exhibit, plaintiff's 791, it appears you had a telephone conversation with Noll Weinrich.
A Yes.
Q And Mr. Weinrich was a Dover board member at the time?
A Yes.
Q And if you could look from the second column, where it says, "Regardless of its potential legal ramifications;" you were discussing a reaction you got from a Mr. Bowman. Do you see that?
A Yes, sir.
Q And was your call to Mr. Weinrich to ask for reaction?
A Yes, it was.
Q And in those last three paragraphs in the last column at the bottom of the page, you wrote, "On Wednesday afternoon Noll Weinrich, a member of the Dover Area School Board said, students needn't worry about that."
And what are you referring to there, when you say "about that"?
A It refers to the previous paragraph, "Once these types of religious themes are introduced into a classroom, it puts a lot of pressure;" that paragraph.
Q "So students needn't worry about that." And then you say that Mr. Weinrich said, "Because the board's goal is not to say that students must believe in creationism or the existence of a creator, but he also said that creationism does not imply the existence of an intelligent life force ultimately responsible" -- I'm sorry, "does imply the existence of an intelligent life force ultimately responsible for all life." Is that correct?
A Yes.
Q Is that something he said to you on that Wednesday afternoon?
A Yes.
Q And was that phone conversation by telephone?
A Yes.
Q Then in that second to last paragraph in the third column, you wrote, "Then he stressed again that no one will be required to believe in creationism or a creator, any more than they are currently required to believe in evolution." So when you say "he stressed again," is that something he said to you more than once?
A Yes.
Q He said that the school wasn't going to force students to believe in creationism.
A Yes.
Q And then you have a direct quote attributed to him in that last paragraph, and it reads, quote, What I am saying is that when you teach only one theory -- and then in parenthesis -- evolution, that theory becomes a fact. I m not saying that students must believe in creation, but I do believe they must consider the possibility." Is that a verbatim quote?
A Yes, sir.
MR. WALCZAK: Your Honor, I'm not going to take him through the rest of these articles in as much detail as I did with Ms. Bubb, but we can break any time Your Honor feels appropriate.
THE COURT: Why don't we take a break now. I think that would be appropriate before you get into the next area. We'll take a 20 minute break, and then we'll reconvene after that and you can pick up your direct again.
THE DEPUTY CLERK: All rise.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken from 10:23 a.m. to 10:46 a.m.)
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