Feedback Compilation
Feedback for September 2004
Selected reader letters and TalkOrigins responses from September 2004.
Feedback Letter
Having read the information on the website, I feel obliged to complain about the author's obvious bias against creationists, and his/her stereotypical viewpoint, that creationists are ignorant to both evolution and to science in general.
"creationists in particular, need to also work a little harder in order to understand science. Reading a textbook would help."
I find this statement both unnecessary and blatantly rude to the many creationist scientists who take the time to research science and the theory of evolution. In reading the information on this site I, a believer of creation, took the time to learn about an opposing view, despite being only 13. Perhaps you could show the same courtesy to creationists, who have equally scientific proof, and a right to be heard.
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I would also add that it really isn't rude. It might be a little shocking to be called ignorant, but it pales besides the threats of hell and damnation we receive here on a regular basis- not to mention the exceedingly vulgar suggestions we also get, presumably from people who are trying to save our souls.
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"Is your (scientists) ego more important than students learning evolution? Think about it."
I have, and it seems the evolutionsist theory is so fragile, it is impossible for someone to speak for it against a creationist without the theory being proved wrong. As a 14-year-old student I would rather be taght the truth of creation rather than a fallible evolutionary theory. Evolution should at least be presented as a theory, rather than fact. I think that it is not important for us to be brain-washed into the evolution theory, without being presenrted with its flaws, which, et's face it, are numerous.
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The Creationists use the King James Version Bible as the inerrant word of God. The ID "theorists" claim that random mutations can only result in a loss of information. The King James Bible has undergone many translations since the originals*. Translations always introduce random mutations. How then can the King James Bible be perfect, when this violates the very premise put forth by ID?
*Here is a "family tree" genealogy of numerous Bible versions, including the King James Version.
Any thoughts on this?
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Sandra Sparks Hurst, Texas
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Glad you liked the site, it is the effort of many volunteers.
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It seems like you guys get a lot of these, in one form or another, particularly when a rash of people whom have nebulous "reports" or "papers" to be writing ask for the complete history of the eye or something similar to be summed up for their exclusive use.
Erm, as for my comment. Looking back over the feedback, I am constantly amazed you've failed to track down people and inflict bodily harm against them for posting that sort of feedback. Really, keep up the good work. If there's any anger management classes or summat you guys manage, post a pay-pal and I'd chip in a bit.
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A donation pathway will be set up in due course, only to cover costs of the running and rental for this site. A Foundation has been established (in Texas) as a not-for-profit organisation, and you can read the details here.
We volunteers will continue to get nothing for our labors, not even beer... *sob*
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"The fundamental idea that animates intelligent design is that events, objects, and structures in the world can exhibit features that reliably signal the effects of intelligence. Disciplines as diverse as animal learning and behavior, forensics, archeology, cryptography, and the search for extraterrestrial intelligence thus all fall within intelligent design. Intelligent design becomes controversial when methods developed in special sciences (like forensics and archeology) for sifting the effects of intelligence from natural causes get applied to natural systems where no reified, evolved, or embodied intelligence is likely to have been involved. (Dembski 2001)"
The only problem is that there is no basis in fact for Dembski's claim, as I have shown in a chapter for "Why Intelligent Design Fails: A Scientific Critique of the New Creationism.
Dembski also claims it is not necessary to have knowledge about a designer's nature or about the means that a designer used to impose their will on the material universe. Supporting this assertion is his frequent statement, "There is a room at the Smithsonian filled with objects that are obviously designed but whose specific purpose anthropologists do not understand," or slight variations. Again the problem for Dembski is that this is also untrue (see Jeffery Shallit 2002 "Anatomy of a Creationist Tall Tale" University of Waterloo). Archaeologists never-the-less routinely recognize as artifacts objects that have no known purpose and whose functions we are unlikely ever to know. But in every instance we recognize them by the simple observation of marks: the pits, scratches, polish, grinding, burning, fracture, and so on that are the unambiguous indication of manufacturing. Dembski followers might try to make the argument that these material modifications are then the criteria used by the EF to detect design, but they neither necessarily complex nor specified.
I personally suspect that we will miss all potential extra-terrestrial artifacts unless they are extremely close to those built objects we're directly familiar with already. Dembski's "method" is absolutely no help.
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Simply because we accept that evolution has occurred does not force us to think we are just collections of chemicals. We are certainly that, but we are so much more. I once heard someone say that we are about $5 worth of chemicals. It was pointed out that if we synthesised the complex chemicals that $5 worth goes to make in a body, we'd all be worth around $5 million. Saying that something is chemical is not to settle its worth, economically or otherwise.
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The Plagiarized Errors and Molecular Genetics FAQ is listed in the Creationism category, and also in the Must-Read Files category.
And don't forget the Archive's search capability!
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Best regards, dan
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You also assert that "If one small piece is missing it will no longer function," as if this meant that something could not evolve. This is not true; so-called "irreduceably complex" systems can evolve. One way they can is as follows:
- A population of organisms has some system (an organ, a biochemical pathway, etc.) that we'll call System A. The population also has a different, unrelated system that we'll call System B. Neither System A nor System B depend on the other in any way.
- By chance, a member of the population has a mutation that allows System B to help out the functioning of System A. We'll call this System B'. This mutation is advantageous to the organism's reproductive success, and over time it spreads through the population and displaces System B. Now the entire population has System A and System B'.
- Later, a second, unrelated mutation in a different organism affects System A. It makes System A work better, but now System A depends upon the influence of System B'. This new System A - call it System A' - spreads throughout the population.
- Finally, a third mutation in System B' makes it more effective, but also makes it dependent on System A'. The new System B" spreads throughout the population.
At the end of the process, what started as two independent systems are now interdependent - one cannot act without the other. Yet they evolved, with no impossible "leaps" along the way.
For more on the fallacies of irreducable complexity, see our articles on the work of Michael Behe.
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I would like to pose some questions to theists like John Wilkins* and Wesley Elsberry (although others are welcome to respond, too). Some are Christian-specific, others are more generic.
- If you believe that life originated through natural,
materialistic processes, and that stars and planets came
together through gravitational collapse rather than the
snap of omnipotent fingers, what need is there for
God?
- If you believe that Genesis is not a literal tale of
creation, or was the product of human authors (as suggested
by your Flood Myths FAQ), what authority does the story
have?
- If the sun didn't really stand still in Joshua,
why accept the veracity of the Gospels of Mark, John and
Matthew?
- If the Bible is scientifically, historically, and (some
would say) morally wrong, why pattern your life after its
teachings?
- If you can believe that all the life on earth could have
evolved through natural processes, without the need for
supervision or intervention, why should the universe need a
thinking entity to create it, as opposed to some
unconscious process or event?
- Do you believe that there is something so special or
unique about human beings that the creator of the universe
would concern himself with us?
- If you accept that populations and organisms adapt
themselves to their environment, rather than the
environment suiting life, does the universe need any
"fine-tuning" for our benefit?
- Do you believe that certain aspects of humanity, such as
love, compassion, or a sense of justice necessitate a
soul?
- Do you believe that the Bible is an exceptional book, a
theology that stands out among other theologies?
- Have you experienced a miracle, or felt a presence in
your heart that had no better explanation than Jesus?
- Do you want there to be a god, because the world would
be a better place if there was one, or because it would be
nice if there were an afterlife?
That's a lot of questions, but the only one you really need to answer is, "Why do you believe in God"?
I have read the God and Evolution FAQ, but it really just said that evolution doesn't rule out the existence of a deity. I've also read the "Various Interpretations of Genesis" FAQ, but that just seems to be six ways of explaining away alleged errors in the bible. I realise that this isn't the best forum for such questions, but you are the only theists I'm familiar with who seem rational and intellectually honest. I'd like to understand why intelligent theists believe what they do, and I think other TO readers would as well.
*I gather John Wilkins is some sort of Deist; excuse me if I'm mistaken.
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The fallacy known as "ad hominem" was originally just a misapplication of a general and valid form of argument - we might think of it as a "by your lights" argument, where one grants the premises of the opponent in order to show that a conclusion follows that either undercuts their case or supports your own. [The fallacy was thinking that because you had shown they must accept X based on their own premises, that therefore X was true.]
Most of what you are responding to in the FAQs with your questions are, in fact, ad hominem arguments of the valid kind - we grant that the Bible might be true, or that God exists, in order to argue that this does not condemn evolution. Of course, some interpretations of these beliefs do prohibit evolution, but it needs to be put vividly and clearly that one need not object to it.
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He misread a simple news article about a planet being detected at a nearby star and wrote a lengthy tirade about it, titled "Transparent Deception In Yet Another Alleged Extra-Solar Planet Discovery."
Hall thinks the astronomers are saying the planet, which is about 50 light-years away, is visible to the naked eye. This is the lead line to Hall's article:
"All major TV and Print and Net "News" Media reported on 8/24/04 a "discovery of an Earth-like planet...some 50 light years away...that is bright enough to be seen with the naked eye"."
What the CBC article, 'Super Earth-like' planet discovered, actually says is that the star, not the planet, is visible to the naked eye:
"The planet orbits a star called mu Arae some 50 light years away in the southern constellation of Altar. The star is bright enough to be seen with the naked eye."
Hall's many glaring errors of fact and logic in his book and the articles on hw website show he has no understanding of physics, astronomy, mathematics, or even the fundamental philosophies and methods of the sciences, but this latest gaffe puts his literacy into question as well.
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1. "If all living things are descended from a common ancestor, why does the human body recognize viruses as something else?" (I nearly choked to death laughing at that one!)
2. His most interesting slide was of a fishing reel stuck through what was supposed to be really old rock. He quotes some head of geology as saying that it doesn't exist because he says so and then shows the picture to the audience. After the show, my Dad asked him for the reference for that quote and Dr. Harrub was kind enough to E-mail the original article to us. The only problem was that the portion quoted was missing. (OOPS!) So we had someone else find the whole article and it turns out the geologist was joking when he said it didn't exist and there were a number of workable explanations for the reel being in the rock. We've asked him a number of times since then why he so blatantly misquoted, but he just won't answer. Big shocker there.
3. He also quotes goofballs like Hoyle and his buddy as "biologists" while referring to Dawkins as "just an astronomer!"
Anyways, they do a good job of crowd control and stop any public answering of questions. These people, while obviously not real bright upstairs are a genuine and growing threat,
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This is the theory that I came up with. What if Pangea did exhist? What if, after the flood, there was just one continent? I think that humans tried to build the tower of babel exactly where babylon is today. In reference to Pangea, Babylon would be in the exact center of the continent. God confused the languages and different groups went in different directions (north, south, east, west etc.). Then, to make sure that humans didn't find some other way to communicate and reunite the languages he separated the continents to separate the people. Makes sense. I read a passage that says, "where God looks at the earth it shakes and where his finger touches it smokes." Sounds like earthquakes and volcanoes to me. I propose, instead of taking billion/millions of years to separate, that God separated the continents in a much shorter span of time. Maybe, even overnight.
email me and let me know if I'm on target.
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When you study geology, you have to seriously alter the way you think about time. You can no longer think of the 1995 as "a long time ago". You have to get your mind around a concept called "deep time". Having said that, I will concede that it's darn near impossible to grasp the concept of 10 million years, let alone 300 million. Most of us just boggle at the notion. Professional paleontologists and geologists (and others like cosmologists) are better at this, but you have to give it a shot.
If you want to read up on the evolution of human languages, and some other fascinating stuff, try Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs, and Steel. You won't regret it.
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One suggestion -- it may not be that feasible -- why isn't there a 'list' of scientists (biologists, geologists, physicists, ect...) who do accept evolution by means of natural selection as a scientific truth? I think if people could see a list like this, they would be blown away by the astronomical majority of scientists who do accept evolution by means of natural selection as scientific truth.
These scientists are not 'blind,' solely following what is 'most common' (evolution as a fact) in their fields... These people are highly educated, observing the vast number of papers/articles/research going that support evolution.
I think that a list like this would blow any person who disputes evolution by means of natural selection as a scientific fact.
Keep up the excellent work!
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I suspect most people have no idea how much research there is behind evolution. Searching for "evolution" in PubMed turns up more than 20,000 papers just in the last two years. Granted, not all of those are about the theory of evolution, but then again, there are plenty of other papers relevant to aspects of evolution which that search would not find.
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Jed
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Please accept our congratulations for the scientific high quality of the document that You have had the iniciative of publishing in the World Wide Web of computers, in the form of a well arranged collection of articles and essays on the so-called evolutionism versus creationism debate, that has been filling library shelves and school lessons for the last two centuries since the publication of "Philosophie Zoologique", by Monsieur Jean Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, Chevalier de Lamarck, in 1809. In fact, we have found one of the most clarifying pages on the subject to be Your lines devoted to the Chevalier de Lamarck and other scientists from the first half of the XIX Century:
Regrettable it is, however, that they are called "Pre-Darwinians" (or "Darwin´s precursors"), in the same fashion as certain philosophers are called "Pre-Socratics". This unfortunate label of "Darwin´s precursors" seems to assume not just the historical importance of Mister Charles Darwin as a philosopher of Nature (or scientist, which is the same), but even the "scientific correctness" of his views, reminding somewhat dogmatically of the "political correctness" of liberal demagogy.
It is important to note that, contrary to what most creationists wrongly think, "Evolution" does not mean "Darwinism" at all. Lamarckism (or evolutionary environmentalism), the inheritance of acquired characters by direct influence of the environment and by the "besoin" of the evolving organism, still today stands as the most credible explanation for the demonstrable and irrefutable fact of the evolution of life forms. Darwinism cannot explain phenomena like, for instance, the socio-biological behaviour of non-progenitor individuals who accept the duty of sacrificing themselves in the defence of the group against attackers, or like the formation of very complex organs (in exempli gratia: the eyes and the binocular vision of a mammal).
The idea that random mutations can help to "select" the fittest is an absurd, it is the absurd of the growing improbability, it is like stating that by adding more than ninety differently numbered balls to a game of bingo, we are helping a particular player to win the prize. The vast majority of random mutations happen to be more of a hindrance than of an advantage.
At the most, we may consider the possibility that evolution does not use only one mechanism (like also we accept that different species evolve at different speeds inside a given geological period), this is to say, that sometimes or with some species the environment plays the main evolutionary rôle, and at other times or with other species the survival of the fittest plays the dominant rôle. But to hold without reservations Mister Darwin´s ideas, is just abandoning a religious dogmatism only for falling into a scientific dogmatism.
In resume, Lamarck´s ideas are as valid today as they were in 1809. Nearly two hundred years of research and discoveries have helped to consolidate his case. It is true that the Chevalier de Lamarck was misunderstood, that he was misunderstood from a diversity of scientific and non-scientific "interpreters", and that a good deal of that misunderstanding came from wrongly assumed semantics of the word "besoin". A similar situation to what happened, in Astronomy, with the famous case of the word "canali" used by Signore Giovanni Schiaparelli, wrongly translated into English as "canals", when a better translation for it would have been "channels", and provoking many people into believing that the Italian astronomer was declaring the existence of engineering works built by an intelligent civilisation on the surface of the planet Mars. In fact, the French verb "besoin" is closer in meaning to "need" than to "wish" or "want", and this (and other translation clarifications) makes Lamarck´s thought more understandable. We personally had the need of reading a copy of the original French edition itself, in possession of the library of the Cleveland Community College (near Shelby, North Carolina, Confederate States of America), for knowing first hand what the Chevalier de Lamarck had said in 1809.
And with this, we finish our letter. Please feel free to
publish this letter in full or in part, to suppress or
modify those parts that You may deem necessary, or to add
Your own notes and references. Be also at will for
including our name, Uniform Resource Locator, or electronic
post address, just in case that some of Your readers may
choose to read also our own document or to communicate with
us.
History, Philosophy, Science, Technique:
http://www.captain-peter-anthony-stonemann-confdrate-states-ship-dixieland.tk/
Receive our Best Confederate Regards, and our
encouragement to continue in Your scientific
endeavour.
For Confederate Independence. Dixieland for ever!
São Paulo, Brazil, 20th September 2004.
Captain P.A. Stonemann, C.S.N.
Response
Lamarck is a much-abused figure, it is true, but the fact remains that the idea that things evolve to meet a "need" or "want" (as "besoin" is translated by Packard - "want" means "something that is wanting" in the older English that Packard is using) is just wrong. It is "finalistic" thinking, or as we know it, teleological thinking. Nothing evolves to meet a future need, and it is here that Lamarck fell down. You are going to have a very hard task to convince scientists that he was right in this regard.
[Lamarck is credited with several ideas, including the inheritance of acquired characters - this is false; it was widely held (including by Darwin) and was not original to Lamarck. He was, however, the author of this idea, and also of the view that evolution is necessarily progressive and occurs independently of other lineages from spontaneous generation through to the "human grade". Neither of these are correct, either.]
Part One of Lamarck's book is on the web in English.
Barthélemy-Madaule, Madeleine. 1982. Lamarck, the mythical precursor: a study of the relations between science and ideology. Cambridge, Mass.: MIT Press.
Packard, Alpheus. 1901. Lamarck, the founder of evolution: His life and work. New York: Longmans, Green and Co.
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Stephen Jay Gould - "I regard the failure to find a clear "vector of progress" in life's history as the most puzzling fact of the fossil record." The Ediacaran Experiment, Natural History)
I had this one used recently, together with 3 other quotes that were all in the mine. Great resource! I love this site.
regards Cath
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I'm glad to see you creationists out there defending our creator/designer. The other sad group of people crack me up trying to explain evolution. Like I asked Bob Patterson on his website, (and he never delivered) show me just two facts that prove evolution to the point where I say -Wow now I believe in evolution, how could I have been so blind. But you can't because you got nothing. When I read the creationists argument against your claims, they're so convincing that a 10 year old would laugh at you. And when I here your explanations to disprove the creationist, I read it and, well, I laugh like the 10 year old would except louder because you're just grasping at fantasy. If there was proof it would be on the news-"well evolution was just proven". But these weak little discoveries make you look ignorant. We would hear people on the street, at work, in CHURCH saying 'did you hear, they proved evolution?'. Something from nothing-what a concept!
Funny how Mr. Borders failed to "SHOW ME SOMETHING THAT MAKES ME SAY WOW, NO[W] I BELIEVE IN" creationism. What is good for the goose is good for the gander! He might try to find a "proof" that not among the hundreds of disproven creationist claims or yet another example of a misquote on evolution used by creationists.
A larger fallacy used by Mr. Borders is the idea of establishing an entire field based on one or two facts. Fields of study are not established in such a manner whether they be evolutionary biology, atomic theory, or anything else. Indeed if evolution depended on only one or two "magic bullets" to "prove" it, that would be grounds for suspecting that serious problems existed with the field. In reality there are many thousands of things which strongly support evolution. Mr. Borders is advised to read this site's article on the evidence for evolution. Its Scientific Proof? section is also useful since it deals with the nature of "proof" in science.
This simple reality is that the mere discovery of evidence for evolution is a "dog bites man" story while the discovery of any evidence against evolution would be a "man bites dog" story that would get a lot of attention. Why would "proof" of what almost every professional in the field of biology has accepted for well over a hundred years make the news? One might as well also ask why "proof" of protons and neutrons has not made the evening news.
Mr. Borders also presented a false dichotomy of either a creator or evolution.
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Amazing. Creationists can't even consult a dictionary for a proper etymology, it seems.
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Dear Mr Wilkins
Though I agree with the ToEv, I must say that you are one dumb shit to think that every one who agrees politically with "neo-conservatives" is somehow a Christian fundamentalist.
Let me guess: you work in a college and have never had a real job, correct?
Leave your political prejudices at home, asswipe.
It is unfortunate that after reading this site for four years, and being amused by the fundies, my first comment has been this one.
Get over yourself, leftie.
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I do not work in a college - I have worked in non-academic full-time employment for over thirty years (with a year of semi-employment). I have worked in factories, done manual labor (not much, though, I oppose exercise on moral grounds), been a clerk in administration, a printer, a graphic artist and a guillotine operator for paper. I suppose this might not qualify me as working in the real world, but I am not an ivory tower academic (although I dearly want to be one).
I am not a left-wing political believer, either. My politics is middle of the road Millian liberal (the word means something different in non-American English speaking countries). In my own country I am regarded as a mild conservative. In any case, that is my personal choice and has nothing to do with what Paul says or thinks. I recommend you get over yourself. It is indeed unfortunate that you allowed your own knee-jerk reactions to inspire you to make a public statement like this.
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The more I think about it, the more annoyed I get. What the F#$! makes you think that all scientists are lefties?
What the F#$! makes you think that those of us who understand and believe that evolution is correct are NOT neoconservatives?
It's s&*@ like this that drives people that can otherwise be convinced of science's truth that you and other lefties turn off.
F#$! you, Wilkins. I am proudly a neocon. Kerry WILL lose, a@@#$%^.
(framing "neocons" makes it a POLITICAL not a SCIENTIFIC discussion)
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I suggest a quick read of the Bill of Rights, which has some words about "freedom of association" in it. P.Z. Myers was exercizing that right on his blog. John Wilkins merely noted it.
I don't see anything there that remotely implies that "all scientists are lefties", or that only non-neoconservatives can appreciate the evidence of evolutionary biology.
But it's an interesting reaction nonetheless.
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Pat Biology/chemistry/geology senior
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I am not a creationist or even a christian however to hight light the 'design flaws' in various species
is not really an arguement against 'intelligent design '
as it assumes an intellignet that shares our vlaues and if there is one thing that is clear from what is said about 'god' it is that its mind would be very alien
Ps I in the process of assembling good scientific evidence that there wasa nuclear war 12000 or so years ago, and a reading of genesis is good eveidence towards this. so once I have proved that the bible says there is no creation o reven god the creationists wont have much of an arguemtn left Pat Kent MSc England
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First off, let me advise you not to put your email address out in public for anyone to see.
Second, many, many people find that they can accept both evolution and God. As a matter of fact, there is a whole philosophy called "theistic evolution" that says God guided the whole process. This might have been from the very start, or at crucial points along the way, or even at the very end, by giving humans souls. And while I am glad you are happy, most people do not feel that there is an "either/or" choice to be made here. The great thing about evolution is that it makes sense. I (or anyone here at talk.origins) would be more than happy to spend time explaining just why that's so, if you want to email us. People who accept evolution and God don't have to look at fossils and make up nonsense trying to explain them away. Most people who accept evolution can look at the similarities between species and believe that God did something wondrous by making us all related. In short, there is no conflict between evolution and God, except one that is made up by people who either don't understand what evolution is all about, or who have some other reason for wanting you to not know the truth.
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It is at http://www.earthage.org/polystrate/Fossil%20Trees%20of%20Nova%20Scotia.htm
Just thought I would bring this to your attention.
[Editorial note: This is a young-earth creationist article. This site has has two polystrate articles.]